Talking Dateline: Breaking Point

[00:02] Mazda has been named Consumer Reports' safest new car brand. It starts with our approach. Every Mazda comes standard with proactive safety features. So you're more aware of what's around you, more focused on the road ahead, and ready before problems ever start. [00:19] Mazda. More of what matters most to you. Go to mazdausa.com to learn more. Consumer Reports does not endorse or promote any product. [00:30] Grainger knows when you're a procurement manager for an office park, you're not managing one building. You're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners. Lights about to fail, filters ready to clog, HVAC on its last leg. If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind. Count on Grainger for quality products, easy reordering, and 24-7 support. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by. [00:56] Grainger. For the ones who get it done. [01:05] Hey everyone, it's Andrea Canning, and today we are talking Dateline, and we're talking about Josh's episode, Breaking Point. So Josh Mankiewicz, hello. Hello. If you haven't watched the episode yet, you can find it right below this one or stream it now on Peacock. So go there and do that, and when you come back, we'll have more from Josh's interview with the man convicted of killing Morgan Fox. [01:30] of your questions from social media. Okay, Josh, before we dive into this episode, just give us a quick summary of,

[01:38] of this episode. [01:40] Sure. This happened back in late 2020 in North Canton, Ohio. And a young woman did not show up for her shift at a FedEx warehouse sorting facility, which was unlike her. She was 29 years old. Her name was Morgan Fox. She got up in the middle of the night to go to work. She worked the [02:10] Now, nothing was stolen. This wasn't a robbery. This was very clearly an attempt to stalk and kill her. And so the Stark County Sheriff's Office began investigating whether she had any enemies. And this is the story of that investigation and sort of how it played out and how it got to the end. [02:32] Coincidentally, [02:34] Right before I started watching... [02:37] your episode yesterday, I was [02:41] driving to the Memphis airport. [02:43] And [02:44] I see FedEx plane after FedEx plane after FedEx plane. And I'm like, I looked it up. I didn't even realize Memphis is the hub, the FedEx hub, even though your story's in Ohio. But it was kind of strange given the fact that I was just about to watch your story when I was just inundated with FedEx airplanes. [03:07] Yeah, I mean, it's a, you know, they've got those sorting facilities all over the country. And it's, you know, this is not a, we have no information that whatever this issue was at the North Canton facility, that it was anything more than.

[03:24] particular to that facility. But the atmosphere at that facility was likened to a frat house, to a boys club, a place where women felt uncomfortable. And sort of a lot of Morgan Fox's problems began when she got promoted from the line to manager. And, uh, [03:45] There was a sort of a campaign of, you know, I don't know whether you'd call it harassment or bullying, but it was a campaign of making her life just a little bit more difficult. I mean, not only were there a couple of guys there hitting on her, I'm not talking about that, but like they would take her chair and hide it, you know, her workstation chair. That's not good. [04:15] job. So, you know, Josh, right out of the gate, [04:18] I loved how you set up the episode and, [04:22] You put strangers into a workplace together, right? Sure. And there's all kinds of things that happen at work. [04:30] Right? Like people are imperfect. And when you put different personalities together. [04:36] I mean, stuff is going to happen for better or worse. Stuff's going to happen. You put a bunch of people in, you add some pressure, you have everybody working together, you know, on what's supposed to be a common goal. And they're going to rate each other. They're going to date each other. They're going to hate each other. That's that is sort of human nature that some of that's going to happen. I will just say to you, Josh, that.

[05:00] On a side note... [05:02] working at Dateline, [05:05] You and Keith, I've been here almost, what, like 14 years now. You and Keith welcomed me with open arms. And you really... [05:14] are the best colleagues. So we're very lucky that we work in an environment at Dateline that is really just... [05:23] a wonderful place to be. [05:25] And that's always been, you know, I've been in this business more than 50 years now. And yeah. Really? Yeah, it's 50. You don't look at Josh. I know. Well, it's 50 earth years, not the kind of, yeah, not the way other people measure them. [05:44] And over that time, Dateline is without question the best place I've worked in terms of the harmony – [05:56] you know, among the staff members. Um, but I'm glad that, um, um, I'm glad that, uh, you said that and thank you. Um, see, that's funny. I just remember Keith stealing your chair and clipboard, but okay. Maybe that, maybe I'm remembering wrong. [06:12] Yeah, that did not happen, Mr. Funny Guy. Okay. [06:19] So, you know, one of the things that was said about Jason, the boyfriend, right, about Morgan's boyfriend, was that he didn't sound right or he didn't sound frantic enough or whatever. It's funny because I kind of disagree. To me, he sort of sounded like somebody in shock.

[06:37] Thank you. [06:39] Well, I think we now know that's exactly what he was. [06:43] When the sheriff's office first listened to that 911 call, they thought, and you know, [06:49] I mean, this is true. 9-1-1 calls get evaluated just like, you know, the homicide investigators always very judgmental of what that first 9-1-1 call sounds like. Does it sound right? Does it sound forced? Is it staged? And so they were looking at that pretty closely. And they thought Jason Skarniecki sounded too flat. But yeah, I think you're right. I think he was just stunned. [07:19] And, you know, not only that, not only did the sheriff's office listen to that 911 call and think the boyfriend doesn't sound... [07:27] frantic enough. They also, on their first interview with Jason McDermott, thought, this is this like little... [07:34] rabbity guy who owns a cat. This is not our murderer. And they were wrong both ways. [07:42] Right. And I actually... [07:44] quoted you here in my notes, single guys with cats don't commit murder. [07:50] Right. [07:51] I mean, that's certainly what the sheriff... As I say that with my cat on my lap. [07:55] Well, um... [07:57] First of all, you're not a single guy. [08:02] I'm not sure that that theory – I'm not sure you disproved that theory. But that wasn't my theory. That was the Stark County Sheriff's Office that thought, this guy –

[08:13] This guy is not a killer. Do you like cats, Josh? [08:17] I'm a dog person [08:20] I say that having no pets when I retire. [08:23] Um, I'm going to get a dog. [08:25] But until then, I travel too much, and I don't think that would be fair to the dog. How many pets do you guys have? [08:34] We have a dog and three cats. [08:36] Yeah. [08:37] And since we do these from home, my cat sits on my lap usually during the podcast. So she just... [08:45] jump down though you might have heard her meowing earlier i don't know there's a uh there was a great there was a great documentary about the 1986 mets in which they interviewed keith hernandez who was one of the stars of the team you know in present day and he had his cat with him like during the entire documentary the cat's like climbing all over him and it's all over the set it's in between the lens and him it was great it was like an extra character um [09:09] Speaking of Jason... [09:11] Yes, which Jason? [09:12] Yes. The killer, Jason. [09:15] Um, [09:17] Jason is so creepy. [09:21] The things that he did... [09:24] Looking through her phone, taking, you know, through Morgan's phone, taking videos of Morgan. Yes. [09:32] And then that whole episode with Sienna, also creepy. All of it, super creepy. And when I spoke with Jason, you know, one of the things I said to him, you know, and he's been locked up for years now. I said, you know, are you, were you obsessed with Morgan Fox? No, no, no, no. Okay, well. No. Hold on one sec, sorry. Oh, my phone's ringing. Okay.

[09:53] *sad music* [09:57] Whoa. [09:58] Sorry. I always like to ask you who calls because you seem to get calls in the middle of talking Dateline. Who was it? It's Amazon. Be good if it were FedEx. That would be it. It's probably not. Josh gets a package in the middle of a podcast about a package company. [10:15] Delivery company. All right. So, so Jason, [10:19] creepy, creepy, [10:21] One of the things I said, one of the things I asked Jason was whether he was obsessed with Morgan. He's like, no, no, no, no. Okay, well... [10:28] you have like, I don't know, like more than a hundred photos of her in your phone, right? This is not your girlfriend, but your phone is packed with photos and you were at least a party to sort of searching through her phone when she didn't have it. And you've contacted her on text, you know, a zillion times. That's obsession. That's what that is. And that's one of the reasons why, you know, Sienna complained that it's one of the reasons why Morgan complained. [10:59] Yeah. Well, and the, you know, Sienna, what really struck me was the moment that she decided to stop getting rides with him to work. [11:10] was really the tipping point for him. Yeah. I mean, you know, she... [11:15] uh she loses her license he sort of gallantly steps in which is kind of his uh mo right thing i'm gonna i'm gonna be the the heroic guy here um and he starts giving her rides and at one point she sort of feels guilty about the fact that he's going out and and she's sienna says i made it very clear to him we are friends i am giving you gas money nothing else going on here but he wouldn't

[11:45] Very unhappy. Yeah. He seems like a hothead. Like if he doesn't get what he wants, then, you know, I guess the title of the show, right? Breaking point. Like he finally snapped. I mean, this is the first time that I've ever heard of a killer setting an alarm. [12:02] to go carry out [12:04] The analysis of his phone showed that he'd set his alarm earlier than he normally did. It's unbelievable. [12:11] This is a trend that we're, I think, increasingly going to see, because I think the criminals of this world have figured out that, you know, the equation of like where you are, where your phone is, law enforcement kind of also assumes you are. And, you know, Jason left his phone at home, went out, committed a murder and came home. And he did this in the middle of the night at a time when most people's phones would be at their house and not being used because they would be asleep. [12:41] that gave him a very plausible alibi and a window to commit the crime and if his car had not been tagged by that traffic camera [12:55] he'd be walking around today. Yeah. I'm working on a story right now, too, with a traffic camera or a tag reader. You know, it's hard to get away with things these days, isn't it? It's never been harder. I mean, in this case, I mean, that traffic camera made all the difference. Yeah. No, it's so true. When we come back, we'll hear more from Josh's interview with the man at the center of this case, Morgan's killer, Jason McDermott.

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[14:59] Don't just get back on track. Start moving forward with Penn Foster. [15:04] Visit penfoster.edu slash dateline to learn more. [15:11] Um, Josh, your interview with Jason in prison, you bring up the phone and you said in the show he was looking at Morgan's phone like it was a Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue. [15:28] We have some sound about that. So you're unjustly accused and convicted? Correct. I'm not going to say any of my behavior was all appropriate. I had inappropriate behavior at times for sure. [15:39] I will... [15:40] Never deny that. [15:41] But [15:42] media inappropriate behavior, like saving the pictures. Yes, I can see how that is creepy and everything like that, and I shouldn't have been doing it. [15:49] Creep is a good word. It is, yes, and I am... [15:51] Like I said, having time to reflect on that, yes. I 100% realize like, man, [15:55] that's behavior I shouldn't have been doing. I should not have just because we're friends with social media doesn't mean I should have been saving everything, like the pictures that she sent me and stuff. Yeah. I mean, you know, his whole, I know, uh, [16:07] His whole message is... [16:09] The only thing I did wrong was look at her phone and then lie about having looked at her phone. [16:17] you know, uh, [16:19] like the nearly stalking-like behavior of making himself omnipresent for both Morgan and Sienna, and like not picking up any message that these women wanted to be left alone to do their job. He...

[16:33] Didn't get that. Taking pictures of her without her consent. Like, like the thing he thinks is wrong is I should have given her phone back sooner. Yeah. [16:42] No, Jason. Wrong answer. And Josh, you cut to the chase with him. You said, let me guess, this is all a big mistake, which you knew. You knew what he was going to say. [17:12] at all. And then they don't testify at trial because they don't want to face cross-examination of whatever story it is that they're telling. And so... [17:21] This Dateline interview that they do when these guys do it, this is frequently the only time that they get cross-examined by anybody. I was totally thinking that as I was watching your interview. Yes. Yeah, I mean, this is a big responsibility for all of us at Dateline because this is frequently the only time that that person is going to get asked any tough questions. It doesn't happen on the stand. [17:51] he did. And then they're not talking anymore. They're not talking. Yeah, I know. It is really important for us. And the families, they pay such close attention to these interviews. And a lot of them are, their first instinct is, you're not talking to him or her, are you? They don't want you to. And then they realize, you know what? We will ask the tough questions. We're actually

[18:21] But that doesn't mean that we're not going to ask this guy unpleasant questions, whoever he is, whether it's Jason or somebody else. And we do. We're always going to challenge them on their story. And sometimes families really want that, as you point out. Yeah. You know, FedEx, at the end, you know, we asked FedEx, your team on this story, asked FedEx for a statement. And I thought to myself, okay, they didn't really say too much other than, you know, their thoughts or prayers or hearts or whatever it was go to the family. [18:51] was we've taken a really hard look at our guidelines for employees or something. It just felt, and maybe they are doing that, but it would have been nice to hear it publicly. [19:03] They just said our thoughts are with the family and friends of Morgan Fox. Yeah. And Amelia, Morgan's daughter, her victim impact statement, that was really one of the most heartbreaking victim impact statements to think of that poor little girl having to be in court in front of the man who killed her mom. [19:22] Assuming was she in court or was it a recorded statement? I don't know. I was assuming she was there. She was there. Since we couldn't see her. But I mean, my goodness, as the mom of five daughters, I just... [19:33] I really did not enjoy that. [19:36] listening to that. I thought monsters weren't real, but you proved me wrong. You hurt so many people. You hurt me and the people I love. You ruined your own life because of how much of a bad person you are. It was heartbreaking. She was there and he's trying, he knew her because he'd spent so much time around Morgan. He'd met that little girl. And so at one point during the

[20:06] straight ahead, right? He's not, they're not making an impact. But she starts talking and he starts trying to look at her, right? Turning around and look at her. One of the court officers deliberately positions himself right in between. I love that. Right? Good. Like Jason and Amelia so that he can't see her and she won't be intimidated or frightened by that. Because she called him a monster, right? She said he's a monster. And now she's having to face the monster again. [20:34] in court. [20:35] - Yep. [20:36] Like, just... [20:37] Just absolutely heartbreaking. What I hope is that that courageous act will one day be something that she'll look back on and think, I did it right. I stuck up for my mom. [20:51] Yeah, I mean, it will shape her, you know, in some way, and I hope for good that she will be a strong, you know, girl who grows up to be a strong woman because that statement was strong. [21:03] She was not, that little girl was not weak. [21:06] And you could hear it in her voice. And that's Morgan Fox, too. And Morgan Fox never backed down from a fight. [21:15] Like, that's what everybody said. Always protecting. I mean, that attitude by Amelia, that is straight from her mom, which is, I'm not afraid of you. And I'm going to say my truth. And you know Amelia's surrounded by... [21:30] really good people, at least it seems, because when they started talking about a Morgan, you know, this idea that on the 22nd of every month, which is the birth date of Morgan, that you do something nice, you know, whether it's...

[21:44] buy someone dinner or pay someone a compliment. Do something nice for somebody else. Just do something nice. After the break, we will answer some of your questions from social media. [21:57] Relax. Apple Pay is secure by design. When you pay with a physical debit or credit card, you're handing your card number over. With Apple Pay, your card number is never shared with the merchant. Apple Pay uses a device-specific number and unique transaction code to help process your payment, instead of your actual card number. Plus, Apple Pay doesn't keep transaction information that can be tied back to you or sell your data to third parties for marketing or advertising purposes. Shop with confidence when you check out with Apple Pay. Terms apply. [22:28] With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. He wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums, he'd also talk about how Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. [22:45] "'What's in your wallet?' [22:47] Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash bank. Capital One N.A. Member FDIC. [22:56] - You might not think about oil and natural gas, but it's a big part of your daily routine. From the soap you use to your toothpaste, [23:04] even your bedsheets. [23:05] More than 6,000 everyday products are made using oil and natural gas. Companies like Energy Transfer work behind the scenes, safely transporting these resources across the country through a network of underground pipelines.

[23:27] Now, Josh, we are going to answer some questions and hear your comments from social media. You ready? [23:35] I'm ready. [23:36] Okay, let's start with Marsha Elford. Marsha says, why did the police not match the tire tracks on her lawn to the tires on Jason's car? Wouldn't that have moved it from circumstantial evidence to factual? The answer is yes, if you could have matched those tires and those tracks to one another, to the exclusion of all other cars. But just as with the gun, which may be... [24:04] came from Jason's parents' house. The tire tracks on the car were consistent, but not absolutely his car. This was a circumstantial case. And a lot of the cases we cover... [24:17] are largely circumstantial, sometimes all circumstantial. And, you know, we see convictions all the time with circumstantial cases. They're a lot tougher for prosecutors, and they make for interesting datelines. You know, journalists are sort of in an abusive relationship with circumstantial evidence, because circumstantial cases are frequently very, very strong, which this one was. You know, it's one reason why the jury did not take forever to deliberate, I think. [24:47] The idea that a circumstantial case sort of isn't a real case is not legitimate. [24:56] There was a great deal of evidence, circumstantial evidence, but there was a great deal of evidence against Jason McDermott.

[25:03] Okay, Josh Yeghead, 22, says, [25:07] Don't recall it being mentioned during the show that Morgan and the other stalking victim worked at FedEx together. Did I miss that? [25:15] Their careers at FedEx overlapped, but they were not... [25:20] close friends. Sienna had nothing but good memories about Morgan, I think, but they were not [25:26] they were not pals. They knew each other. [25:30] Okay, this is a sweet comment from Shelley Hossack. I am going to celebrate Morgan on the 22nd of each month and do a Morgan. [25:38] Such a sad episode. [25:40] I think Morgan's family's onto something there. I think everybody should do that. That's a great thing. It's great to make your mission doing something for somebody else once in a while. It's great. [25:49] It feels good being nice to people, doesn't it? And doing nice things. [25:52] I'm going to start that next year, but I hear that it does feel good. What do they say? Yeah. [25:59] It's a lot easier to smile than it is to frown. Right. Right. [26:02] Right, exactly. Yeah. Look, Josh, we're smiling. I know, look at that. [26:08] Okay, ChuckDZ76. Oh, that baby's testimony broke me. She shouldn't be mourning her mom. And it's Mother's Day weekend. [26:18] Uh, Chuck Desey, longtime friend of Dateline online. Um, yeah. Um, uh, and as usual, uh, Chuck is right. It's, um, [26:28] Yeah, I mean, it's coincidence that this ended up airing right before Mother's Day. But that doesn't make it any less poignant or awful.

[26:38] You know, that little girl is still surrounded by family, and she's doing very well. I mean, we have so many... [26:46] sadly, children that we've profiled... [26:49] on Dateline through the years that are without their mom. Well, our hearts go out to all the children of victims from our stories. It's absolutely heartbreaking. [27:00] But let's finish this on a lighter note, Josh. We had a lot of fans apparently multitasking on Friday. Francis MPU said, Nick's win. Time for Dateline. Yeah. [27:12] Go Knicks. Hey. [27:14] It's nice. You know, Michael Ray Richardson just passed away a few months ago, but, you know... [27:21] He'd have been thrilled to see the Knicks coming back. His famous quote, the ship be sinking when the Knicks were not doing well. But now... [27:31] The Knicks are doing better. Yeah. I've been to one Knicks game. [27:34] And a friend of mine... [27:37] This is going back quite a ways, was dating the owner of the 76ers, and they were playing the Knicks. And so we went to the Knicks game, and we sat courtside. And it was quite a treat, I have to tell you. [27:50] I would have been in the nosebleed seats. You were leading a charmed life, Ms. Canning. Well, through a friend. I mean, you know, anyway. [28:00] Thank you so much. Thank you. For all of your insight in this Talking Dateline. It was a very, very well done, fascinating episode. That is it for Talking Dateline this week. And thank you for listening. Remember, if you have any questions about our stories, you can DM us your audio or video on our socials at Dateline NBC or leave us a voicemail at [redacted phone] for a chance to be featured right here.

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