#2466 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin

[00:00] Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. [00:11] Okay, so when we scheduled this, the time was happening, the world was so peaceful. Every time we're here, something crazy is going on, man. Yeah, maybe we manifest it. To be honest, it did, 2026 did start with a bang. [00:27] Yeah. Well, a lot of things, you know. [00:32] It's just nothing seems stable. [00:34] Everywhere. Everywhere in the world seems fucked right now. Like, this is the, like... [00:39] In all of my years, this seems the most unstable globally. [00:45] Like I never worried that the UK was going to be like complete chaos, arresting 12,000 people for social media posts and abandoning trial by jury, all that shit. [00:58] I never thought the Ukraine-Russia war would go on this long. Never thought. Never thought they would just continue bombing Gaza, and then what's happening now? They just sort of stop and... [01:11] Now they're talking about putting a resort there. [01:14] What? You hear that and you go, are you fucking serious? Right. Tim Dillon has a, I won't give the bit away, he has a fucking phenomenal bit about staying in that resort.

[01:30] Yeah, and you boys have been busy as well, Joe. Yeah, and I was going to get to that. The embarrassing part. [01:37] In the middle of Ramadan, you take out the leader of a Muslim country. [01:43] And the hangry already. And you're fucking with it. Well, they're really. Yeah. I can't drink water. Right. And then, you know, I was listening to Tim Dillon's podcast today. He's got a great podcast with Ryan Grimm and one other gentleman. But one of the things that they brought up was that some of these drone attacks, it doesn't even seem like they're from Iran. [02:09] Some of these drone attacks on Gulf states. Mm-hmm. [02:12] Like that one of them... [02:15] I don't want to speak out of tune, out of turn, because I'm not exactly sure which ones they're talking about. They're talking about one of them on... [02:25] Either it's an oil refinery. I think it is an oil refinery. [02:29] It doesn't seem like it came from Iran. Where did it come from? That's a good question. One of their proxies? [02:36] That's a good question. The fear is a false flag. That's the fear. Like if you really wanted to get really scared of what we were dragged into – [02:45] You're dragged into an ally that's not telling you the truth and is also doing some other stuff. [02:51] Well, I'm not even saying that that's the case, but a lot of people are assuming that that's what it is. [02:58] But that's what happens when you have an absence of information. Right. And so the moment you have an absence of information, there's a vacuum. And nature abhors a vacuum. You need to have that vacuum filled. So that's where conspiracies naturally flourish. 100%. Because if people don't have information, then they're going to...

[03:14] basically theorize and [03:17] part of [03:18] people theorizing is conspiracies are going to start flourishing. Well, I think they were basing it on... [03:23] Where the drone came from, like, let's see if we can find some information on that, Jeremy. I will try. It was Jeremy Scahill was the other reporter on the – [03:34] I just find it amazing now how many people have like a hard take on like what's going on. I'm like, what? We don't know a fucking thing about what's going on. Like the coin is in the air, right? And we do not know how it's going to, but everyone's got to take. Everyone knows. [03:48] We do not fucking – I don't think anyone knows. I understand if you – [03:53] If you work at the White House or if you work in Russian propaganda or you work in Chinese propaganda or if you work in Iranian, like you've got to get your point of view across to try and persuade people. But if you're actually trying to work out what's genuinely happening, I don't think anyone knows how – this is a – [04:08] gamble of gigantic proportions. Right. And nobody knows how it's going to end. It's like, it's just so unpredictable. And I can tell you a great story from, [04:18] that [04:19] is like positive for the West, let's say, or for America, I can tell you a terrible story, and they both sound very convincing, and no one knows which one of them is true. [04:28] Yeah, that's a very good point. [04:29] uh, [04:30] This is the hot take culture, right? Right. Everyone has a take, and they want that take to be that expert take. So specific drone attack incidents that call potential false flags. Saudi Arabia – Saudi Aramco, rather –

[04:46] oil facility attack. [04:48] So Iranian officials deny striking the Saudi Aramco processing facility and instead suggest Israel may have carried out that attack as a false flag to inflame Gulf opinion and pull Saudi Arabia more directly into the war with Iran. [05:03] So Ryan Grimm explicitly says he thinks Iran's claims that Israel hit the Aramco facility need to be taken seriously and that it's very possible Israel did it. [05:14] And this was the other one, the drone strike on the British base in Cyprus. That was from Lebanon, right? Yeah. [05:19] Is that what they're saying? Yeah. May have come from the direction of Lebanon. He places this in the same context of Iran claiming Israel carried out certain attacks in neighboring states as false flags to blame in Iran and drag those countries into the war. Those countries – this doesn't make any logical sense to me because those countries are already in the war. I mean Saudi Arabia and UAE have been attacked by Iran because – [05:43] They were on the phone to Trump basically asking him to do this. This is another weird one, the Tucker Carlson one. You saw that, right? No. So Tucker Carlson said that they had been arrested. The members of Mossad had been arrested in Qatar and Saudi Arabia. But both Qatar and Saudi Arabia have said it's not true. Yeah. They've officially denied such arrests. Their own Saudi sources also denied it, though they note details don't prove it didn't happen. [06:13] certainly hide such arrests if real. Huh?

[06:16] Thank you. [06:17] The thing, Joe, is that these countries, so Saudi Arabia and UAE, Qatar less so. [06:22] They want this to happen because they also hate Iran or the Iranian regime. Right. So there is no need for Israel, even if people are tempted to believe, there's no need for Israel to do this because these countries are already – [06:37] in it. [06:38] And that's one of the reasons that Iran has attacked things in Saudi Arabia – [06:43] and in the UAE is they know that. [06:45] Right. The Gulf countries are on board with this. Right. Right. [06:50] So what would be – let's assume that the false flag, that it's in play. Why? Why would Israel – how would they benefit from doing that? That's what I'm saying. There is no rationale that I can think of. The people that think the false flag is real, why do they think that? What do they think that Israel would benefit from? Is there a scenario where you can imagine it would inflame things and further support other countries contributing to the – [07:20] right right this is insane amount of money just for munitions just for missiles yeah yeah and then rebuilding Iran if we get to that right maybe another resort yeah so but I just don't see the rationale because the Gulf countries are already targets for Iran right there's nothing to inflame like the situation is already pretty fucking inflamed right and it's partly inflamed because as I say actually the Gulf states are [07:44] and Israel are pretty aligned on this particular thing.

[07:48] a threat from the Iranian regime. So we had Eamon Dean and Richard Minnett on our show the other day. One of them is an Al-Qaeda MI6 double agent. Another one is a really reputable investigative journalist, Richard. Al-Qaeda MI6 double agent. What balls. He has a great podcast now as well called Conflicted. [08:14] What a great name for a podcast [08:18] What balls that guy must have. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Really cool guy. But anyway, I mean he was explaining that Saudi Arabia has a population that is way bigger than what they can sustain in terms of the water. But they live in the fucking desert. So they have these desalination plants which are extremely vulnerable. And Saudi Arabia, UAE, these other countries, they felt at huge risk from Iranian attacks for a long time. [08:49] So in actual fact, dragging them into the wall, there's no sense for that. I think there's a lot of people just... [08:55] They go to reaction now whenever anything happens is that it was Israel's fault. Like Venezuela. Fuck all to do with Israel. But when it happened, everyone was like, oh, it's Israel. I think some people just go to that now as the automatic response, which comes back to what I was saying earlier about the hot take culture. Something happened three minutes ago, and now everyone's got a fucking take on it. You don't know anything. None of us know anything. None of us know how this is going to go because this right now is a highly unpredictable situation.

[09:25] White House knows how this is going to go. [09:26] This episode of the Joe Rogan Experience is brought to you by Paramount+. UFC history is going down at the White House. It's the world's greatest fights on America's biggest stage. Watch UFC Freedom 250 at the White House live today only on Paramount+. [09:46] This episode is brought to you by Traeger Grills. If you enjoy food, and I mean really good food, Traeger is a game changer. This isn't just a grill. It's the ultimate way to cook outdoors, delivering unbeatable wood-fired flavor thanks to the all-natural hardwood pellets that fuel everything you grill, smoke, or bake. That's it. Just wood and fire and flavor. And what's truly wild is how easy it is. [10:16] Traeger handle the rest. Grilled steaks, smoked ribs, even baked pizza, all on one grill. If you're into fire, flavor, and doing things right, check out Traeger Grills. [10:28] Let's talk about Service Titan, the AI for the trades. The trades are the backbone of this country. And for the first time, they've got technology that actually matches the work. Over 10,000 contractors already use Service Titan software to run their businesses. Built by two guys whose dads were in the trades, this isn't some tech company guessing at solutions.

[10:58] generic internet data. This is AI designed specifically for contracting work, HVAC, plumbing, electrical, and more. It's booking calls while you sleep, dispatching your texts, helping you run your back office, growing your revenue. One platform, fully automated, always learning, always improving. Every other industry is still trying to figure out AI. The trades are about to lead from the front. Service Titan, the AI for the trades. Learn more, [11:28] It's servicetitan.ai. No, it's terrifying. It's terrifying, and it's exactly the opposite of what we were told leading into this administration, that it's going to be America first. [11:40] No more unnecessary foreign wars. There's the other thing that – do you remember Desert Storm? Yeah. Desert Storm, quick and easy, baby. Woo, we went in, kicked some ass, took some names. That's a wrap. Pulled out. There was only one base that got hit. So there was – the amount of deaths by American citizens was fairly minimal. I think that's what got people so confident into entering Iran after 9-11 – or excuse me, Iraq after 9-11. To go back – like we already fucked them up once. [12:10] and this is going to be easy. Well, it wasn't easy the second time. It was drawn out, and it didn't make any sense. But people wanted some form of revenge, something for 9-11. And so somehow or another, they justified a war. [12:23] with a country that had zero to do with it. It didn't even make sense. That one took – and then we also invaded Afghanistan at the same time. What did we do? What the fuck? So in the fog of this idea of American exceptionalism, we're just going to go in and fix it. We did it before. There's no one even close to us. Well, look how that turned out. Yeah, well, this is completely true. And it's this idea that it's so easy to take one regime, remove it, and then just put another one in its place like it's a Lego block.

[12:53] you're going to magically fix a country is a fantasy. Like if you take Iran... [12:58] the IRGC, which is the Islamic Revolutionary Guard, [13:02] Numbers around 200,000 people. [13:05] trained soldiers and only are they trained soldiers their fanatical the fanatics and then you have the secret police and then you have the regular police and then you have the people employed in the government and then their families and so on and so forth and then the supporters within the country and then you've got the various factions within Iran like the Kurds who want independence so the moment the the leadership is weakened they're going to use it as an opportunity to launch their own revolution to try and break away from [13:34] the rest of Iran. [13:35] So you have all of these particular parts, these factions, and then you think if you take out the top, [13:43] The guy at the top who's holding it all together by force, I'm not saying I agree with him or what he does. You have the very real risk that the entire country is going to disintegrate, as what happened in Iraq. [13:56] And also Livia. Yeah. That was a big risk. The idea that you could just take the guy out and that's a wrap. [14:02] But the... [14:05] I mean, it doesn't seem like it's well thought out. Well, I mean, I guess they would say Venezuela, right? Like a regime adjustment. It's a completely different kind of. Of course. Of course. This is a religious fanatical. Right. It's a totally different kind of country. Also, it's a country that's been under threat for decades. Right. So they've been preparing for this kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. And also with Venezuela, it wasn't a regime change.

[14:29] practically everybody who was in the old regime is still there. It's a regime adjustment. Exactly, exactly. So Delce Rodriguez was one of the senior leaders. [14:38] in Maduro's regime. They just took out Maduro and his wife, they put Delce Rodriguez there, but [14:45] The whole structure... [14:46] The whole leadership, the whole party is still in place. [14:50] So they've just what they've done is they put Delcy at the top and they've said to her, look, [14:56] If you fuck about, you're going to get what your boss got. [14:59] So you're going to follow what we say. You're going to do what we say. You are going to open up the oil refineries. We're going to build it. You're going to start pumping oil out. You're going to stop messing about with Hezbollah, which they had training camps in the island of Margarita, which is a little... [15:13] Caribbean Island, two and a half hours away from Miami. [15:16] training camps, you can't have that. You're not going to be fraternizing with the Cubans. [15:21] And you're going to play ball. And essentially, Venezuela is now a colony of the United States. That's what it's now become. [15:27] That's wild. [15:29] There's also the Kurt Metzger angle, which is hilarious. Kurt Metzger cornered me one night at the mothership, and he explained to me that this is all about the 2020 election. [15:40] And that Maduro somehow or another had something to do with rigging the 2020 election, and he's going to say it as a part of his testimony. [15:52] He's like, just wait. Just wait. Mark more words. He's convinced of this. He goes down the rabbit hole to the lava. He passes and he's like, this rabbit hole has been covered up. It goes deeper. He keeps going until he's at the fucking center of the earth. He's a funny guy, though. He's hilarious. He's hilarious. He's mentally ill. He's hilarious. He's one of the funniest people I know, like ever. Fantastic joke writer, too. I mean, he's just great all around.

[16:22] But Jesus Christ, like some of his... [16:25] nutty theories. They go so far. Oh, absolutely. I've been in bars with Kurt where he starts talking to me, and I'm like, Kurt, I don't even know what we're talking about anymore. Well, he changes conspiracies mid-sentence. He starts bringing up some shit from the 70s, and there's the church committee, and this and that, and MKUltra, and don't you know about Monarch? Like, what? It was... [16:49] Slow down. [16:50] Not everybody knows what you're talking about. But I think... [16:54] This is and I love Kurt, but this is kind of where you feel that the truth isn't enough. So there needs to be something else. There needs to be something that goes deeper than that. And sometimes there is. Don't get me wrong. Sometimes it does go deeper. But sometimes you're making connections where there are no connections. It's pretty simple with Venezuela what was going on. [17:17] They were fucking about... [17:18] And they were doing it for a long time. And they were doing it in America's backyard. And they had warning after warning. And Maduro, the way I'd push back against Kurt is, I'm really sorry, Kurt, but Maduro ain't that bright. [17:29] Well, I don't think he has to be that bright to finance and make sure and arrange things because they did – there was like some – something connected to the voting machines that were there. They made those claims. Who was that woman? Sidney Powell, was it? Yeah. Here we go. She's another fun one. Post-2020 from Trump allies like Sidney Powell and Rudy Giuliani claiming Hugo Chavez, Maduro's predecessor, developed rigged software to export to U.S. firms. These were promoted by figures like Mike Lindell. He makes a great pillow.

[17:59] You should listen to them and amplify it on social media, but courts and fact checks rejected them, including Fox News' 787 million Dominion settlement. Yeah, I was going to say I was pretty sure that those claims were debunked. Yeah, not to Kurt. [18:18] He's like, you guys don't know where the hard drives are. They're in the center of the earth. We got to get there. Um, [18:24] Yeah, that doesn't make much sense to me, but neither does this idea that you're going to take over a country's oil supply. You know, like that – [18:33] You know, we'll just take it. The problem is from the outside. Like the rest of the world... [18:39] You look at this unnecessary aggression by the United States government and then you tack on whatever propaganda they have already been spitting out about America for the last 20 or 30 years. And then this war with Iran gets really ugly because that's how you start a World War III. You start a World War III by doing something that – [18:59] Other than people that wanted this forever... [19:03] Who else thinks that's a good idea? Who else thinks it's a good idea to just attack a country that isn't doing anything? [19:09] They haven't done anything. Like if you proof that they have developed depleted uranium and they've got it up to a point where it's – they've got it to what percentage does it have to be? Like they're at 60, right? But that's way more than you need. Way more than you need, right? So it shows that they're at least ramping up their production where it's possible to get it to whatever it needs to make it. That's way more than you need for civilian use, right? Right.

[19:39] when North Korea has nuclear weapons. Right. Yeah. Right? [19:42] It's like, do we just want we just try to prevent them from ever getting to a point where they're like North Korea? Who the fuck is worried about North Korea? Zero people. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. Look, if you're trying to take your business seriously, you've got to level up your website. Mine, Joe Rogan dot com, is powered by Squarespace. It's a no brainer because it does all the hard stuff for you. They've got everything in one place. [20:12] professional build your brand get paid all of it go to squarespace.com slash rogan and try it out for free [20:20] And when you are ready to launch, use the offer code ROGAN to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. I think the difference, as you correctly said earlier, is these people are very different to the North Koreans, right? North Korea wants to be left the fuck alone. Iran does not want to be left alone. Iran wants to dominate the region. That's why they fund Hamas. It's why they fund Hezbollah. It's why they fund the Houthis. It's why they are doing shit. [20:46] That's why the Gulf countries and Israel are very worried about them. So that's the difference, I think. And then there's the – some of the people we've had on the show who are Iranian have talked about the – what is it called? Twelve Shia Islam? I can't remember the details. But basically they have a kind of messianic vision of what's going to happen. [21:07] And they believe that when the world ends, that's when the prophecy will be fulfilled.

[21:13] you don't want those guys with nuclear weapons, right? That's a good point. Yeah. So from that perspective, it's different to North Korea. Um, [21:21] And so that's – I think that's part of the thinking. But your point is interesting to me about – [21:27] The fact that this doesn't reflect what people, you know, as we're not Americans, but it doesn't seem to have been part of the policy platform of the Trump administration. [21:35] election at the last election, right? No, not at all. But I do think there is some kind of strategy behind all of this, and I'm very curious what that is. [21:44] Because I guess if you think about it logically, you would say, well, is it an attempt to effectively push back against China and Russia infiltrating all these countries, right? China and Russia were very close with Maduro in Venezuela. [21:59] Very, very good. Like Francis is saying, Hezbollah training camps, Island Margarita. Where was the oil going? [22:05] Right. Same with Iran. I mean, Iran sells its oil to China and sends suicide drones to Russia to use in Ukraine. So maybe it's that maybe the strategy is you're trying to push back against Chinese and Russian influence in all these countries because you can't attack them directly because you can't attack them directly. Right. Yeah. But this is all just guessing on my part. And that's what I'm really curious. We're going to do some interviews on this trip to kind of like I want to get someone on the show who can go. [22:35] This is what we're doing because I think, as we were saying earlier, it's not very clear to most people what the rationale behind all of this is. But I also don't think this sort of like mad dog Trump idea is true either. I think he has a strategy. I'd just love to know what it is. And it's very interesting because –

[22:53] There's been talk about [22:55] regime change in Cuba [22:57] And one of the things... I think that's next, genuinely. Oh, my God. I think that's next. So when Chavez came to power in 99... [23:05] What he did, and not enough people talk about this, is he turned what was... [23:10] very corrupt, admittedly, liberal... [23:12] western-style democracy [23:14] into a communist dictatorship. And how do you do that? You can't just literally do that overnight. So what he did is he allied with the Cubans and... [23:24] Fidel in particular, Fidel Castro. [23:27] Venezuela provided Cuba with cheap oil, which helped to keep the Cuban economy afloat, because Cuba's been going broke since however many years, 40 odd years. [23:38] was he gave him [23:40] The boots on the ground in Venezuela. [23:42] but also the technical expertise and know-how in order to change a Western liberal democracy into a communist state with permanent surveillance, secret police, subjugate the population so there was no chance of them ever being able to revolt, and turn everything, like I said, into a communist state. So by what they did in Venezuela, Venezuela can no longer support Cuba. [24:06] So Cuba? [24:08] is literally now withering on the vine as a result of them knocking out the Venezuelans. [24:13] Hmm. So it's going to come to a point where you say Cuba effectively going to go bankrupt. [24:19] which could precipitate... [24:21] An uprising, a revolution by people when people can no longer eat?

[24:25] And that would mean that that country is then weakened. Finally, they can get rid of the communist regime there and... [24:32] they can have a different type of government, one which would be far more sympathetic, shall we say, to... [24:37] working with America and being an American island. Possibly. That makes sense to me in a way. What I don't understand about the Iran thing is like... [24:45] What is the end goal here? Well, you've got the Reza Pahlavi, the Shah's son, [24:50] I mean he left Iran a long time ago as a kid. [24:53] Right. The idea is going to go back in and be welcomed by the masses. Maybe that's true. [24:59] It's like Daenerys returning to the Iron Throne. Yeah, but Daenerys had three fucking dragons, right? [25:07] But you know what I'm saying? Like she left when she was a baby. Yeah, that's right. And it's not like the people are desperately – I don't know. Maybe the people are desperate for the return of the show. Well, it seems like some people are desperate for a change there. The people that were protesting. 100%. People that risked their lives. 100%. 100%. But like every country, like if you only listen to the liberals in this country, you would [25:29] that no one's illegal on stolen land. If you only listen to the Republicans in this country, you would think we've got to find every illegal and get them out of our country and make America great again. It doesn't make sense if we just go only by the protesters. We don't really have accurate polling because they don't have any free speech over there. And they killed famous athletes over there for protesting. I mean, they killed the Olympic gold medalists in wrestling.

[25:59] They executed him for just – apparently – I don't even think he was actually protesting. I think he was just at a protest. [26:07] He wasn't even saying anything. And this is a thing you always have to bear in mind, Joe. I might be wrong about that, though. No, I think you are right. Am I right about that? The final details, I'm not sure, but the fact that he was executed. Yes, he was executed. I know Dana worked very hard to try and save that guy, right? I think there was some discrepancy as to whether or not he was actually participating in the protest. That also could have been the defense. I don't know. But, I mean, the fact that they execute people who protest, there's no way you can support that kind of – [26:37] fucking government and run by religious fanatics. That's a scary ass government. But the question is, how scary ass does it have to get where invading makes sense? Because if this keeps going, like if we – [26:49] We have to go boots on the ground. That's where things get nuts. You can't go boots on the ground, man. You can't. [26:55] You can't. Right. [26:56] I don't think there's any – I think you should be president of the United States. [27:01] There's a lot of people that are going to disagree with that. [27:06] No, I don't think that's viable. Well, it might be robot boots on the ground. Yeah. If Elon gets that factory up in time. What I want to know is like what is it that you're working towards? Right. Right.

[27:26] a Pahlavi monarchy, because the other... [27:28] Middle Eastern countries. [27:30] that they have peace with [27:33] Bahrain, Morocco, increasingly the Gulf states, they're all monarchies. So they're down with that. But from what I understand, the White House – [27:43] is really not that interested in Pahlavi. [27:46] And so what do they want? Well, one of the things that Richard Minniter broke on our show because it hadn't been reported anywhere else was that the White House has given the Israelis a no-kill list. [27:56] which is basically a list of members of the current regime that they don't want to be killed because they have hope that these people could then be killed. [28:05] that Rodriguez [28:07] equivalent in Iran. And I don't know... [28:11] that the fanatics within the Iranian regime who are there now [28:16] how many of them are like this mod like Darth Vader but like do you know what I mean? Yeah. You're kind of looking for Darth Vader zero. Yeah no no no no Islamism. Zero Islamism. Like I don't know that that exists right? Right. Sugar free. Sugar free. Islamism free. Yeah. [28:32] So... [28:33] So that's the bit. And that doesn't mean that there isn't, like, a plan. Right. But I don't know what the fuck that plan is right now. And I find it hard to see one. Right. So evil regime gone, wonderful. But the question is always, like, what comes after that? Right. That's always the question. And that's where I think your point is very true, which is in the past, there have been times where this sort of approach has gone completely off the rails. Yeah. That's a fact. And it's also, as well, what has been coming out of the Trump camp is –

[29:01] contradictory to put it mildly. You have Hegsev saying one thing, you have Trump saying another. They contradict each other at certain points. Is that a tactic in order to befuddle the opponent? Maybe. Who knows? Or is it the fact that they don't actually have a grand vision? Was there some sort of a concession today on Russian oil? [29:18] Yeah. [29:19] Well, I think, first of all, Trump let India buy Iranian oil, and I think now they are lifting the sanctions on Russia selling its oil because the oil prices spiked as much as they did, right? Yeah. [29:31] Here it goes. U.S. eases limits on Russian energy as oil prices soar. Right. [29:36] Dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum. Yeah. My head. [29:44] Well, you've got the Pink Floyd teeth, so it's appropriate. But you can see it. Like, the oil prices spiked. [29:50] For what? One day? Two days? Yeah. And everyone... [29:54] went full panic straight away. But the thing is, if that carries on for two months, [30:00] the impact of that on domestic politics... [30:03] I mean I'm not an expert in American politics but even I can say that's going to be pretty fucking important. Oh, it's bad. Right. [30:09] Yeah, it's going to be bad. I mean, if oil prices spike, we're fucked. [30:13] And the Republicans are really fucked. Yeah. And you've got the midterms coming up. You've got the midterms coming up in November, and it's also the momentum will be in their way. [30:23] And look, there's second, third, fourth order consequences. So at the moment in the UK, the vast majority of people are finding it more and more difficult just to get through to the end of the month because of the cost of living, inflation.

[30:39] It's becoming worse and worse. I was talking to a butcher in my area, which is this very nice part of North London. You know, the type of place I'm talking about. Everyone loves BLM. No one has a black friend. That kind of place. Right. That's the kind of area it is. And he was telling me that even in this very wealthy area, people are starting to ration meat now. So before they'd have meat five days a week. Now they're going down to three or two. [31:03] And this isn't a wealthy area. So now imagine if there's energy spikes and then food becomes more and more expensive. There is already a very worrying situation. [31:13] Hard left [31:15] political movement growing in the UK, where they're talking about, you know, the capitalism doesn't work, we need socialism, and there's this new politician come to the fore, a guy called Zach Polanski, who talks about what we need in this country and the UK is socialism. Now imagine if the cost of living crisis gets worse, and the vast majority of people who work hard in a regular job, [31:40] can't make ends meet through literal no fault of their own. [31:43] Can you blame them for going, hang on, capitalism doesn't work? Because in this instance, at that moment, [31:49] It doesn't work for them. [31:50] And then that could spark something... [31:54] completely disastrous for our country. [31:56] But I think that's a negative story. I think it's incredibly persuasive. And I lean more in the direction that this could go badly. [32:04] But I also think there is the possibility of this goes well too. I think that is possible. How do you envision that scenario? Well, so if they're able to keep the straight-off numbers open and you don't have this energy problems that we've got now –

[32:21] Venezuela, Cuba, he's basically resetting the region and he's basically saying to all the people that want to align themselves with China and Russia – [32:30] Like, we're not fucking about here. Don't cross these lines. That is an opportunity to address the slide that the Western world has had vis-a-vis China and Russia for a very long time. That could be a very positive thing. The thing is, what happens in Iran, like, that is the thing that I don't really see how that goes well. Might do. Like I said, there's probably a plan that we don't know. And if that works out, that could be very good. [32:57] Okay, what would you imagine that plan would be? [33:01] If you – like let's imagine – best case scenario, you're in the White House. They're all very rational. No one is being influenced by foreign governments. No one is incompetent. Everybody knows what they're doing. Yeah. I mean we're in the realms of fantasy. That's what I like. [33:18] But I mean take the Soviet Union, which is obviously something that I know, right, being born in the Soviet Union and Russia. Towards the end of the Soviet Union, you still had some fanatical communists. [33:31] within the government, a mixture of different people, right? You had the fanatical communists who believed that communism is the only thing that was ever going to work, etc. But you also had people who were reformers. They saw the problems. They saw that the fanatical communists were ruining things and things were getting worse, right? They saw that you had to kill more and more of your own people to keep shit locked down, right? So the argument could be within the Iranian

[34:01] There are people who are like, you know, I'm not necessarily that keen on the guy who runs Syria now, Al Jilani. He is a jihadi. [34:09] But he's kind of like a moderate one. You know, how long that – I don't know how long it's going to last. But my point is within every regime, there is some range of opinion. There is some range of fanaticism. There is some range of people who – [34:22] Partly for generational reasons. You know, the younger people have seen... [34:27] you know, a 40-year history and they now go, okay, this isn't working anymore. We need to try something else. That is possible. [34:33] So if the CIA and the White House have someone like that, [34:38] And they can do a regime adjustment. And like, I think the idea that you're going to have, [34:45] You know... [34:46] Multi-parliamentary democracy with free and fair elections and women like Venice Beach rollerblading on bikinis on. I don't know that that's going to happen. [35:01] an authoritarian regime of some kind, like many other countries in the Middle East, [35:06] Which realizes that actually economic growth is more important than shouting Al-Aqaba every three minutes and blowing shit up. [35:12] Right. That focuses on making life better for their citizens. But, you know, practices traditional Muslim values, which many countries do and says, you know, women ought to be modest, but doesn't force them to wear the burqa or or the headscarf or whatever or. [35:30] And is less interested in destabilizing the region and attacking others and trying to be this great power.

[35:37] and is more interested in just prosperity for its own people, survival for themselves as a regime. [35:44] and is willing to play ball with the United States. I mean, that's best case scenario. That's best case scenario. Now, if you get there... [35:51] I think that would be a huge win for President Trump and it'd be a huge win for the world. [35:55] And he will walk away from that with a huge win. And I think, you know, you're better expert on the American people, but I think American people like winning. [36:03] right so if you have all this happen [36:06] he can then say, "Well look, we did this, we did this, we did this, [36:10] Russia and China have been pushed back. We've got to – Iran is not going to get a nuke, which is important. I think we can all agree on that, right? There is the possibility that he comes out of this very well. [36:22] I think that based on what I see, but I don't know, coming back to what we said earlier, [36:27] I think we share this kind of perspective, really, Francis and I. [36:30] That seems somewhat less likely. The point is harder to see. But I think you can tell a persuasive story both ways. I really do. [36:38] This episode is brought to you by the Farmer's Dog. Here's a fun fact. Research shows that dogs who maintain a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer on average than dogs who are overweight. Isn't that wild and also kind of obvious at the same time? So why is feeding vague scoops of ultra-processed kibble still the status quo for most dog owners? Healthy alternatives exist, and trust me, I know – [37:04] I buy one, the Farmer's Dog. I use it for both my dogs. They love it. They eat it up quick. It smells good to them. It smells good to me. It's human-grade food. The Farmer's Dog makes fresh food for dogs, and my dogs love it. Their recipes are made with real meat and fresh vegetables that are gently cooked to retain vital nutrients. They also portion out the meals to your dog's nutritional needs, which helps avoid overfeeding and makes weight management easier

[37:34] best friends something every dog owner wants? The answer to that is yes, obviously. So try the farmer's dog today and get 50% off your first box of fresh, healthy food. [37:47] Plus, get free shipping. Just go to thefarmersdog.com slash rogan. This offer is for new customers only. [37:56] This summer, the Cup is taking over the U.S., and only DraftKings has you covered every step of the way. Follow every group stage upset, every knockout round thriller, every stoppage time moment that flips the whole tournament. Sweat all the big matches you love in real time with a seamless experience built for the world's biggest stage. No matter where you're watching, you're always connected and in the game with one app. [38:26] Sign up with code ROGAN. Spend $5 to get $200 in rewards within 21 days. That's code ROGAN in partnership with DraftKings. The crown is yours. [38:55] That makes sense, and what you're saying I think is very valid that we need to abandon any idea of them having some sort of a democracy over there. It's not going to happen. No.

[39:04] Um... [39:05] And, you know, you do look at the relationships that we have with – [39:10] Other Gulf state nations seems fine, right? It's not threatening to us. We would like everyone to be free and have the same sort of liberal democracy that we have in America, but... [39:22] Okay, you like that all – want that all day long. You can't do anything to change the way other people govern themselves, especially when you've gotten – [39:31] To the point where – like take any of the Middle Eastern countries for example. Some of these people are worth trillions of dollars. These royal families have been running it forever. They have insane amounts of oil money. [39:44] Good luck. Good luck getting them out of there. Good luck saying we should just vote. [39:49] you know, and have a president and you don't have any power anymore. Like how are you going to pull that off? Especially if things are going well for the people that live there. Like I have a friend who moved to Dubai and he's an American and he moved back to America recently. But he was over there and he said, dude, you could leave a Rolex on the street and people would pick it up and bring it to the police. Like it's so safe. He's like there's no crime and he's black and he's like, I worry when I go out in America, I'm going to get shot. [40:19] I'm worried I'm going to go to a club and someone's going to start beefing and shooting up the place and I'm going to get hit. He goes, I don't think about that at all over here. There's none of that. He goes, it's safer. Is it fucked up that it's run by a king? I guess. Is it that much different than a president? Yeah.

[40:39] I mean, in a way, like... [40:41] It's a leader, right? You've got more checks and balances over here. You've got Congress. You've got all this shit going on with the Supreme Court. You have all these different human beings that also have a say and can block things. [40:54] But at the end of the day, we're still under this bizarre alpha male chimpanzee structure that has existed from the time that we were 150 people in a fucking tribe, right? Right. [41:07] So it's still one guy running things. It's just running things their way. And if you're a citizen, you're a citizen. [41:13] in Dubai, [41:15] Pretty fucking good, right? Well, your point about the UAE is really interesting because not only is on the practical level of safety and other things, but also they don't have the Islamism problem that we have in Britain. And increasingly, you guys are starting to see here because they recognize that it's a problem and they deal with it. [41:45] Islamists... [41:46] In Britain. Which is fucking wild. Yeah. That is fucking wild. Yeah. And you – I mean you were messaging me about this story with the Mamdani situation right yesterday. Yes. You now have this problem in America. Yeah. Yes. You have the Islamism problem here. [42:01] where people who are supporters of ISIS are thrown by. And I mean, your media is pretending it's not happening. [42:07] But it's fucking happening. Well, it happened in Austin. Right. Yeah. I mean, the guy who shot up that bar. Right. Because this is a problem. I'm going to send that article to Jamie. Jamie, you could probably find it on CNN because it's kind of hilarious. It's incredible. This was actually incredible. The New York Times title change thing. Did the New York Times change their title? Yeah. They did? I wonder why. All austere scholars. I'm going to send you the CNN one first. The CNN one is really wild.

[42:36] It was called, they had like fuses of... [42:39] Things with smoke or something. They change it to bombs or something. Yeah, fucking duh. I'm sending you this one because the CNN one is – [42:47] believe it or not, more preposterous. The CNN one is so kooky. You see their headline, and you're like, what? [42:54] what kind of story are you painting here? Like, [42:58] This is such a crazy way to frame a guy showed up with bombs and was hurling them at people. [43:06] Well, they made it sound like the exact opposite of what actually happened. Well, it sounded like it was just a regular day. It was a regular day for this fella, and then things just went a little sideways somewhere along the line. Listen, we've all got hobbies, man. You know what I mean? You like working out. He has nail bombs. Come on. [43:22] Did you get it, Jamie? [43:24] It's not coming through? No, look, it's not loading there. Oh, interesting. But let me see if they took it down. [43:33] I guess they would have. You probably have an old link. Okay, that's the New York Times one I sent you. Oh, no, that's the one I just clicked on. Let me check the original one. Nothing to see here. Interesting. [43:44] They probably deleted it. Okay, here, I found it. I found it. [43:47] Two Pennsylvania teenagers cross in New York City Saturday morning for what could have been a normal day, enjoying the city during abnormally warm weather. But in less than an hour, their lives have drastically changed as the pair would be arrested for throwing homemade bombs. [44:03] That is CNN's tweet. I'm going to send you a screenshot because I do believe they have taken it down. It's for them. Yeah.

[44:11] Yep, nothing to see here yet. Yeah, they took it down. That's not a headline, though. That's, I guess, like... No, no, no, no. I'm going to send you the actual tweet because they did take it down because it's so fucking ridiculous. But the internet never forgets. [44:27] I'm sending it to you here. Thank God I saved it. It took a screenshot. Because I'm like, this is such a crazy way to frame two guys wanting to do a terror attack. Yeah. But it's not an accident, Joe. It's not crazy. [44:41] You know it's not crazy. Look how it's framed here. This is the original tweet. [44:46] Two Pennsylvania teenagers, just regular fellows from PA, from Philly. Two Philly boys had a couple of cheesesteaks and then got on the train. Crossing New York City Saturday morning for what could have been a normal day, enjoying the city. [45:00] during abnormally warm weather. Why the fuck would you even say that? Could have been a normal day if they weren't going there to commit terrorism. Do you know what it reads like? It reads like when I used to teach 13-year-olds creative writing. That's how they'd all start off. It was like a normal day. I mean, I'd like to know who wrote that. Who's the person who wrote that? I want to know, were you directed to write it that way? Who approved it? Yeah. Who edited it? Are you trying to downplay the possibility of, first of all, now in New York, [45:30] Because you have a guy who's an avowed whatever he is, democratic socialist, some say communist, but also Muslim. And then you have these Islamists who are doing a terrorist attack. So are you trying to soften that? Yeah, but they are. Are you trying to soften it? So what happened, just so people know, is there was a protest outside Mamdani's mansion. Right. Right. And then these two people turned up and threw bombs at the protesters. Right.

[46:00] No other stuff. You would have come away from the conclusion that it was the protesters who were the targets of the bombs. [46:07] They were the ones that threw the bombs. No one officially said that's what happened, but the way they did the story and the headline... [46:14] you would have got that impression. And you're just going, well, [46:18] You were just on a team. [46:20] You see this as a team game, right? And you want to present your team in the correct light. Oh, the new post. A post regarding two individuals arrested for throwing handmade bombs outside of New York City Mayor Zohan Mondani's home failed to reflect the gravity of the incident. [46:36] thereby breaching the editorial standards we require for all our reporting. It has therefore been deleted. But see how skillful this is, Joe. This is gaslighting again. They're saying their mistake was to... Look at the first post. Look at this guy, donut operator. Nah, you retards got called out for trying to downplay actual terrorism, and now you're backpedaling. Yep. Who's that second guy? He's really smart. Didn't fail to reflect the gravity of the situation. This guy named Constantine, I think he's on that trigonometry show. [47:06] Reflected gravity of the situation. It failed to accurately communicate who was responsible, who the intended victims were, and where the blame for the attempted terrorist attack lay. In other words, you didn't accidentally downplay the seriousness of it. You deliberately misrepresented what happened to conceal the truth from the public. Well, that's how AI would say it. [47:28] I still write my own shit, John. I know you do, but I like the donut operator guy.

[47:34] I know. He's more your cup of tea. [47:36] That's how I like to talk. That is what happened though, right? That is what happened, but that's what's really scary about this world we're living in right now because we're so ideologically captured, both right and left. Everyone in this country looks at this administration as an existential threat to democracy itself and our way of life and fill in the blank. Whatever marginalized groups are all going to be round up and put in internment camps. [48:06] that if the sky is falling because Trump's in office but it's also as well what people on the left don't want to acknowledge is the dangers of Islamism right when they see people do these kind of horrific terror attacks when they see for instance what happened in the London Bridge terror attacks in 2019 or what happened in Manchester in the Ariana Grande concert where Islamic terrorists bombed [48:30] Ariana Grande concert and the majority of the audience were little girls. [48:35] with young girls and they say all that this happened because you know they were marginalized and they felt angry and this is what people do when you push them to one side and they don't have a means in order to have to express themselves you going no [48:48] What this is, is an ideology. [48:51] It's an ideology which believes that our civilization, our way of life, [48:56] is evil, but also they want to establish their form of radical Islam across the globe. They want to create a global Islamic caliphate, and they will do whatever it takes in order to achieve that goal. But people in the West, they can't understand that because it's so alien for how we see things. We believe human life is precious. We believe the most important thing is human life. They don't. They believe the cause is more important than your life.

[49:26] Christian even though we might not be. We still have Christian values. We had a guest on the show, a wonderful historian called Tom Holland, and he explained this to us, that even if you're not Christian, even if you think you were raised by atheist parents, you were still raised with [49:42] Christian values. That's the soup in which we live. That's what the water in which we swim. So this way of life that these people have, this ideology is so alien to us that we can't understand it. But also, we don't want to understand it. Because if you [49:58] start to actually investigate what these people believe, what their ideology is, you realize that we are not all the same, and these people believe something very, very different. And then we're going to have a very uncomfortable conversation of how do you tackle this? Because can you have Western liberal democratic values and Islamism and people who are Islamists in the same society? And the answer is you can't. And I think it's really important, your point, the difference between Islamists and Muslims. Yes. [50:28] are these Gulf state people. Muslims are these people in Dubai and Saudi Arabia. Islamists are the ones that want the caliphate. But then you have the crazy Christians. And that thing that I sent you, the Yahoo thing that we talked about yesterday with Schellenberger, [50:42] The Yahoo thing is nuts. So... [50:45] these [50:46] Military leaders – so this comes from one of the non-commissioned officers who went to a briefing. He goes to a briefing, and they inform him that you shouldn't be scared because this is all – because President Trump is anointed by Jesus, and this is to bring about Armageddon so that Jesus returns to earth.

[51:05] This isn't a fucking military briefing. One such note included an anecdote from a non-commissioned officer who reported that their commander had urged us to tell our troops this war was all a part of God's divine plan. And he specifically referenced numerous citations out of the book of Revelations referring to Armageddon and the imminent return of Jesus Christ. [51:25] This is fucking crazy. He said this morning, our committee. So this is this is an officer who's talking about this. This morning, our commander opened up the combat readiness status briefing by urging us to not be afraid as what was happening with our combat operations in Iran. He said President Trump has been anointed by Jesus to light the signal fire in Iran to cause Armageddon and mark his return to Earth. [51:49] He said he had a big grin on his face when he said all this, which made his message seem even more crazy. [51:54] Well, that's reassuring. Well, this is the scary arm of the right. This is the scariest arm of the right. The people that think that this is one of the main reasons, the Mike Huckabee people. I think this is the main reason to protect Israel. It's a part of God's plan. You know, Israel is where Jesus is going to return. He's going to return to Jerusalem. [52:16] Yikes. Yeah, I've never really understood that. Like, I think you can argue for – you can be pro-Israel for pragmatic reasons. [52:24] Religious stuff is a little bit. [52:26] weird to me. But the problem is you've got fanatics like the Islamists, but you've also got these... [52:34] Christian hard right Christian nationalists that really believe that this is a part of biblical prophecy and that they this is book of revelations. It's about to go down and they want it to go down.

[52:48] This is fucking terrifying. This is really interesting for us because [52:53] In the UK, Christianity is being dig-fanged to the point where there's a trans flag on practically every church. So this idea of having these hardcore right-wing fundamentalist Christians, we just don't experience that. [53:09] Yeah, it's like, can't everybody live in the middle? Why do you have to go all the way over to, we've got to start Armageddon? Jesus is going to come back on a white horse? You ever read the book of Revelations? Yeah, I got really into it. [53:21] The book of Revelations is kooky. [53:23] You know, they really believe that Jesus is going to return on a horse. [53:27] Why a horse? A white horse. [53:29] It's a bit racist. A little bit. I mean, I don't get... Can we have a diverse horse at least for Armageddon? One horse of color, Joe. You want me to read you the passage? Because I saved it. Because it's kind of kooky. Because it's one of those things where you just go, well, who fucking believes this? [53:47] Is this really what you think is going to go down because someone wrote it down on paper? [53:51] 2000 years ago in [53:53] in ancient Hebrew, it says... [53:56] Heaven opens and Christ appears on a white horse to judge and wage war called faithful and true with eyes like fire, many crowns and the name King of King and Lord of Lords. [54:09] Just imagine it's 2026 and you're like, that's the blueprint, boys. But this is just as scary, and especially for people that are Muslims, right? Yeah. Or anybody who lives in the Middle East. Like, this is more important than human life. This is more important than international law. This is like in the eyes of the crazy on the right, this is the problem. So it's like it's not like one side. It's like all good over here. We have a fight against the Islamists.

[54:39] too. [54:40] If that guy's for real and that guy's in a position of power and he's really having combat readiness meetings where he's telling people that we have to bomb and start Armageddon so Jesus can come back on a white horse, fucking yo. Hmm. [54:52] That's kooky. The thing that is probably reassuring somewhat is I don't – President Trump doesn't strike me as one of those people. He's not. He's not, right? Whereas the leader of Iran is. [55:04] Right, but people in the military I think are as well. Yeah. And people in high positions in the military I think maybe as well. Yeah. If this guy can give that kind of a meeting – [55:13] And that kind of a speech at a meeting that that's a little terrifying. And if I was over there, I'd be freaking the fuck out. If I'd be like, this is your plan. [55:22] I'm cannon fodder so that Jesus can come back. My body's going to be a part of the fucking signal fire. Let's be honest, though. It wouldn't be that much of a plot twist for 2026, would it? Right. It would be the final, you know, episode 10, Game of Thrones, season six. [55:40] Yes. I mean, it is getting fucking wet. And that's when the aliens come. Maybe that's what they're doing. [55:45] You know, the whole thing is – [55:49] There's not a sane person on either side. [55:52] The whole thing is nuts. [55:55] It doesn't make sense to anybody, and that's what scares the shit out of me. Yeah, it's – [56:03] The thing that scares me is what Constantine has addressed. [56:07] I don't get worried unless...

[56:09] I can't see a way out or the way that this is resolved. And like you said, the coin is in the air. [56:15] And I'm slightly of a more pessimistic nature. He's more of an optimist. But as I... [56:21] I look at it and I think to myself, this could go so wrong, so badly wrong, that it could make Iraq look like an absolute picnic in comparison. Yeah. Well, especially if terrorist attacks start popping off over in America, like major ones. You know? And that... [56:38] That could be bad for everything. That could be bad for freedom of speech. That could be bad for rights. That could be bad for incorporation of digital ID. That would be a good way to push that through. There's a lot of stuff that would go through that would radically change just like the Patriot Act did. Patriot Act radically changed the freedoms that we have in America and the overreach that the government has allowed. You're so right. We only just started being allowed to take water back on the fucking planes, right? Right. [57:08] about it, so you can't take water on a plane anymore. Didn't they decide to let people keep their sneakers on? Wasn't that going on for a while? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can't have that. We have one fucking shoe bomber. That Richard asshole, that one guy? Yeah. One guy. Yeah. And there was once, do you remember you weren't allowed to bring scissors on? Oh, yeah. Like the small scissors? Yeah. [57:25] I can't remember the comedian who said this, but he went, you know what? If you take over an entire plane armed with nothing but water and some small scissors, you deserve the plane. Well, here's the thing. Like, you can bring skateboards, but you can't bring a pool cue. [57:39] So it doesn't make any sense. Like, I fuck you up with a skateboard. I'll fuck a lot of people up with a skateboard. You know? Like, think about what kind of damage you could do with that big, heavy-ass thing. You know? Yeah, it's just... And the worry is, when it comes to all of this, is you look at these guys and you go, do you have a vision for what is actually going to happen? But I do think they do, though.

[58:03] I do think they have a vision. [58:05] What I want to find out is what that vision is. [58:07] I hope you're right, but I don't think you are. You don't think I am? [58:14] It's very possible that they thought this would be over much quicker. They thought taking out the eye to look, look, just look at the success that they had in the initial bombing of Iran. Right. The initial bombing, they supposedly decapitated their ability to make nuclear bombs or at least stopped it for a long time. And there was a lot of concessions that the Iranians were willing to submit to that they never submitted to under Obama or anybody else. And that wasn't enough. Right. So. [58:39] The problem is when you're – like we were talking about Desert Storm. You get away with something that works really well. You're like, we know what we're doing. And then you bite off more than you could chew. Yeah, and especially once you've done Venezuela, you feel like you're kind of – you're on a roll. But I did this. Yeah, I see your point. I see your point. I do think though – I mean from what I read, both Kushner and Witkoff both said that the Iranians were not playing ball actually. [59:04] Okay. Which is why they went in. So obviously if you think about it, given how long it takes for US assets to get to the region, this decision would have been made weeks ago at the very least. Right? And that's because from what I understand, the negotiators like Iran isn't actually playing ball. What they're doing is they're claiming publicly. [59:23] that they're willing to make concessions. But when we sit down with them, that's not what's happening because all they're doing is stalling for time. That makes more sense. And so if you were worried that someone was in the middle of actually getting their uranium up to a point where you enrich it to nuclear bomb levels. Right. But I think a lot of people misunderstand that in the sense that, like, I think it's based on my understanding, it's totally false to claim that they were, like, about to develop a nuclear. They were not. Well, you've seen the compilation of...

[59:51] of Netanyahu saying Iran is two weeks away from developing a nuclear bomb all the way back to the 80s. Have you seen that compilation? I haven't, no. It's wonderful. See if you can find it, Jamie. Because it's so kooky. I mean, he's been talking about this for fucking ever. They're that close. They're two weeks away. [1:00:09] And maybe they are. And maybe Stuxnet put a dent in that, right? [1:00:21] We're running... [1:00:22] Their nuclear program over there? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I don't know that they were ever like two weeks from having a payload that was ready to be delivered to whatever. But they were enriching uranium to levels that you only enrich if you want nuclear weapons, right? And so I guess the question for Trump is like, do I allow this to continue? And do I have to wait until they've got the fucking bomb on a launcher waiting to go? There it is. Let's hear it. [1:00:48] You've probably heard this line before. [1:00:51] Iran has never given up its quest for nuclear weapons and the missiles to deliver them. [1:00:56] That's because Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has been saying this for more than 30 years, claiming Iran is close to having... Nuclear weapons. Nuclear weapons. Nuclear weapons. Atomic bombs. [1:01:16] Within three to five years, we can assume that Iran will become autonomous in its ability to develop and produce a nuclear bomb.

[1:01:24] Three years later, in his book "Fighting Terrorism", he repeats the same time frame: [1:01:30] three to five years. [1:01:32] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Fast forward to 2002. Netanyahu testifies before a U.S. congressional committee actively calling for the invasion of Iraq. [1:01:43] Are there any other nations that you would recommend that the United States launch preemptive attacks upon at this point? The two nations that are vying, competing with each other, who will be the first to achieve nuclear weapons is Iraq and Iran. The invasion happens months later. [1:02:01] Keep going on this. ...are found in Iran. [1:02:05] This is a fragment of a 2009 U.S. State Department cable released by WikiLeaks. [1:02:11] Netanyahu tells members of Congress that Iran is one or two years away from being capable of developing nuclear weapons. [1:02:20] It's 2012 and Netanyahu is holding up his infamous cartoon bomb at the UN General Assembly. [1:02:31] at current enrichment rates [1:02:34] They will be finished. [1:02:35] The medium enrichment... [1:02:38] And move on to the final stage. [1:02:41] From there, it's only a few months, possibly a few weeks. [1:02:45] before they get enough enriched uranium [1:02:48] for the first bomb. And now, 33 years after Netanyahu's first so-called imminent warning,

[1:02:57] Israel attacks Iran. [1:02:59] If not stopped, [1:03:00] Iran could produce a nuclear weapon in a very short time. It could be a year, it could be within a few months, less than a year. [1:03:08] That's despite the U.S. Director of National Intelligence saying Iran isn't building a nuclear weapon months earlier. Iran lied. But for Netanyahu, the slogan has been the same for decades. [1:03:23] I go, I said big time. Richie Medvedenko, Al Jazeera. [1:03:27] Thank you. [1:03:27] We get it. Yeah. So, but here's the thing. Maybe he's kind of right. Right. [1:03:33] Well, they haven't ever done it. Right. Yeah. Well, there's a difference. They certainly are enriching uranium to a point where it's more than you need for power. Right. So why are they doing that? Right. Right. [1:03:44] Right. And so I guess for Trump, the calculation is like, I'm in my last term. [1:03:49] I might as well, you know, roll the dice, go and deal with it now. Could end very badly, as we've discussed. [1:03:55] There is a way that it ends well. We will see what happens. I just honestly don't think anyone knows how it's going to go. I don't think anyone knows. How can you? [1:04:04] There's so many moving parts. So if I ask you, Dana White just announced the UFC card for the White House, right? Yeah. Who's going to win Justin Gaethje? [1:04:13] You are not going to say this is what's going to happen. Right. You don't know. Because nobody knows. Yeah. And this is like a hundred times more complicated than that. Right. [1:04:22] Yeah. [1:04:24] Yeah, at least. At least. Yeah. Probably several thousand times more. So it's a gamble. And you've got to think, if this goes badly...

[1:04:35] This is legacy defining for all involved, for all involved. Yeah. This will – whatever you've done up to that point, it's like Blair and Bush. [1:04:45] Tony Blair, people forget in our country Tony Blair was immensely popular [1:04:51] And then Iraq happened. [1:04:53] And if you mention Tony Blair now, the only thing anyone remembers is Iraq. So for context, Tony Blair was one of the people. Tony Blair is a hero in Kosovo because he effectively stopped. The large part of the reason the war in Kosovo ended was Tony Blair. I think there was something. I saw a story that kids when people were naming their kids Tony Blair. [1:05:14] They regret it now. [1:05:18] He was one of the central people in the Northern Ireland peace deal, bringing peace to Northern Ireland. For people of our age who grew up in the UK, we never thought we'd see peace in Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland was a glorified civil war. [1:05:32] And it had been for however long, right away from the 60s or 70s, the 80s. And he was one of those people instrumental in bringing peace to Northern Ireland. It was a miracle. [1:05:42] It was a total miracle that that happened, the Good Friday agreement, and it was other people as well, like Mo Molan, etc., [1:05:49] So you look at Blair, he was on a roll. [1:05:52] He must have thought to himself, everything I do turns to gold. I have achieved... [1:05:57] Peace in Kosovo. [1:05:59] Peace in Northern Ireland. [1:06:01] Why can't I invade Iraq? [1:06:03] in Afghanistan and install democracies and bring peace to the Middle East. I've done it to Northern Ireland. No one ever thought that could happen.

[1:06:11] So, this will, whichever way it goes, I think it will be... [1:06:16] defining for the people involved. If it goes well, [1:06:19] This is like... [1:06:20] the biggest, you know, [1:06:22] uh... [1:06:23] Hail Mary touchdown in history in some ways. It goes badly. [1:06:27] That will define... [1:06:29] Certainly from an outside perspective, that's what I see. It's going to define the presidency. I mean, I don't know how you can argue with that, really. [1:06:36] No, no. [1:06:38] know how you can argue with it either. But that's what's so interesting about people that absolutely know how it's going to play out. You know, you don't. [1:06:46] And then there's also the New York Times thing. Did they change that, Jamie? [1:06:50] Or did they take it down? [1:06:53] I just sent it to you. [1:06:56] So what does it say? So does New York Times still have it up? That's from a day ago, it says. Wow. Yeah. Crowd gathered on Monday. They didn't say which Monday. [1:07:07] It was a Monday. It was just six fucking years ago. [1:07:12] um... [1:07:13] Yeah, and then again, this is the problem where everything is polarized and politicized. Well, I think your point about people wanting to believe something is so true. If – whenever anything like this happens, you instantly get these camps, right? You've got the anti-war camp. You've got the pro-war camp. You've got the this camp. You've got the anti-Israel camp. You've got the pro-Israel camp. And everyone like – [1:07:35] Information is no longer about information. Right. It's just fodder for your information war that you're fighting. Exactly. And then on top of that...

[1:07:44] And look, this is a kind of – I'm cutting my own balls off here because I make good money from posting stuff on X, right? But the monetization of content has made things different. [1:07:55] And we can all see it in our feed, right? Yeah. You've seen this. Yeah. I mean, you must see it. Yeah. So now you have people who are basically – like I go on Twitter on X to express my opinion. [1:08:05] And to engage in discussion with people who have a different opinion. That's what I do, right? But there are now lots and lots of people who go to work. [1:08:14] They go to X to work. Right. [1:08:16] and that's what they're doing. Now the incentive structure of that [1:08:21] is not conducive to a healthy debate at all. What you've got now is people going, okay, a thing has happened. What is my – Venezuela got – It was Israel's fault. Okay, here's some content about that. And it's no longer authentic communication, unfortunately. And that's just actual people doing it. Right. Yeah. And then you've got AI on top of that. Yeah. And then you've got foreign bot farms. Yeah. And foreign governments trying to influence this shit. There's this one currently popular page that I follow that's clearly AI. [1:08:51] I mean you could just read it and tell that it's AI. And it gets immense amounts of engagement, heavily right-wing, like really well-written, you know. [1:09:01] Not funny, but not human. Not funny, real funny, but funny, technically funny. You know what I'm saying? Insults that are technically funny, but for whatever reason you don't digest it. It's like Olestra. Remember that stuff? It just went right through you like diarrhea. That's what it's like. It's got no soul. There's no soul to it. That's just one thing.

[1:09:28] I mean, how many of them exist and how many state actors are running bot farms? [1:09:33] So we don't know what the fuck is going on at any given time. [1:09:37] But it's the incentives that have become perverted because it's no longer, like Constance said, about expressing opinion or wanting to get involved in dialogue or debate. What you've got now is people, like you said, earning their livings. So if you know if you need to pay your mortgage at the end of the month or you need to pay a team or you have a company, you're not going to put out a nuanced take. [1:10:07] get people upset or angry and agree or agree with you and therefore more likely to share. [1:10:13] So that's the content you're going to put out because that's the content that's going to make you the most dope. 100%. And then you have people that are pushing for this idea that no one should be able to post online unless you're using your real name and you show some sort of an ID, which is also kind of crazy. Yeah. There's downsides to that for sure. But I also do understand why they're saying it. I understand it too. I just think it's a slippery slope that stops all whistleblowers. And imagine you are a regime critic in Iran. Yeah. [1:10:43] I think Jordan Peterson was actually one of the first people that suggested this thing, and I understand why. [1:10:52] Because the way it's like the windscreen, the windshield effect in your car, the way you and I behave face to face is not the way people will behave when they're sitting in their truck and someone cut them up in traffic.

[1:11:04] Social media is... [1:11:06] We cut each other up in traffic and then sit there and go, fuck you, buddy, from behind our screen. That's what it is. Yeah. Right? So I understand it. But times a million. Times a million. Yeah. Right? And then you've got foreign bots and all that kind of shit. Yeah, yeah. [1:11:20] And then taking away people's right to anonymity online. Like, fuck me. The second, third, fourth order consequences of that are pretty fucking crazy as well. I found another picture of that. [1:11:32] This summer, the Cup is taking over the U.S., and only DraftKings has you covered every step of the way. Follow every group stage upset, every knockout round thriller, every stoppage time moment that flips the whole tournament. Sweat all the big matches you love in real time with a seamless experience built for the world's biggest stage. No matter where you're watching, you're always connected and in the game with one app. Yes, that means you in Massachusetts. [1:12:02] Sign up with code ROGAN. Spend $5 to get $200 in rewards within 21 days. That's code ROGAN in partnership with DraftKings. The crown is yours. [1:12:30] This episode is brought to you by Dodge. The new Dodge Charger Scat Pack is built for people who still believe driving should be exciting. You want to talk about performance? Let's start with a twin-turbo six-pack gas engine. All gas, no mercy, 550 horsepower, 0 to 60 in just 3.9 seconds, and a top speed of 177 miles an hour.

[1:13:00] traction, and attitude, the Dodge Charger Scat Pack comes with standard all-wheel drive and a selectable rear-wheel drive mode so you can get confident handling when you want it and the freedom to still be able to do burnouts. Available in both two-door and four-door models, the new Charger Scat Pack, it's loud, it's fast, it's powerful, and unapologetically Dodge. Learn more [1:13:30] is a registered trademark of fca us llc area from what it says is yesterday so i don't know that it was not real so this is from which website i typed it into perplexity and i'm clicking around on pictures to find out where they're coming from one by one so is it possible [1:14:00] in the same spot. Yeah, that's my understanding. This is a similar photo. That makes more sense. This is an AP source on this photo. Okay, so all the New York Times did is get the wrong photo of a bunch of people gathering. I'll note this one, which is at night, so it is definitely a different photo. This is from January. [1:14:16] This one is. Yeah, but this is not the same photo that we looked at before. Right. So the other one, though. This one is from a day ago. [1:14:24] It's very similar. Well, that's very different right there. That's small. But it's the same angle of this little pool thing or whatever it is. Right, right, right. So what they did was just use the wrong footage but a similar sort of a protest. So it was just an unfortunate error not like reframing the narrative with propaganda. That I'm not sure because even these comments before Sandus is like AI and it's fake photo. But that's why I was trying to find other sources of it. What does Grok have to say? I mean I used our perplexity.

[1:14:54] Right, but I mean on the post usually if someone posts something on – they say, Grok, is this true? Is this footage legit? [1:15:01] Oh, that's it. Okay, it's on Instagram. I can find it on Twitter. And so Perplexity says that there is a legitimate size protest that's like that. Yeah, I just asked if crowds gathered there yesterday. It says multiple reports indicate that thousands of people gathered in the central square in Tehran yesterday, show support and pledge allegiance to the new supreme leader. [1:15:20] How do you say his name? [1:15:22] Mojtaba Khamenei. [1:15:27] He's the son of the guy they killed. Right, yeah. [1:15:29] How many people have they killed so far? Like the leaders? I don't know. But it's probably up to the low hundreds, I would imagine. Because they had one guy last week that was the new guy and they whacked him almost immediately. I didn't tweet this, but when this guy was appointed, I wanted to say, like, congratulations to him and condolences to his family. [1:15:48] I was like, this is a bit full on. Yeah. [1:15:51] The problem is you're right. Yeah. [1:15:55] Yeah, I don't think he's going to last very long. Because he seems pretty hardline as well. Yeah. [1:16:00] Well, I mean, they killed his dad. Yeah. That doesn't tend to de-radicalize you very much. You know, that's going to piss you off. So Jamie put in, did the New York Times use an old photo for this event? [1:16:10] Evidence so far suggests the New York Times used a recent photo for this week's gathering, not an old archive image, though many commenters have accused the opposite. Interesting. [1:16:21] Instagram's own post of the square crowd, multiple Iranian users claim the image is fake or AI or from 2020, and several assert that it's not representative of real public sentiment. However, another Facebook thread referencing the same image states that it was taken by New York Times photographer Arash Khadr.

[1:16:43] Kamushi on Monday, March 9, 2026, which matches the article date and captions used by other outlets showing the same scene. See, this is the fog of confusion that exists on social media. [1:16:58] isn't it worrying that we can no longer tell what's real? We're already at that point. And when you think of where we were last year, where you could really tell pretty much what was AI and what wasn't. Now we're in the murky waters of is this, isn't it? It's going to come to a point pretty soon where it's, [1:17:16] Everything is going to look like real life. Well, as soon as AI can't detect it, that's when we're fucked. Right. And then so I talked to Mark Andreessen about this and his recommendation was that everything should be on the blockchain. So you're going to be able to tell whether or not footage has been altered, what the chain – [1:17:33] custody of this image has been. [1:17:36] where it started, where, you know. [1:17:40] I mean, it's terrifying, isn't it? It is, yeah. [1:17:43] Because you're going to think, is that going to be the end of journalism? Really? [1:17:48] Is that going to be almost... I think we're talking about this, and this is really, really important, but... [1:17:53] What's coming with AI is even more important. And even the people you talk to in the field have no idea what's going to be the second, third, fourth order consequence. Right. I know. [1:18:06] I mean, there's so much to be excited about with AI. [1:18:10] I think it blinds a lot of people to the like not exciting parts of it. Well, ultimately, if you just looked at where – what is it ultimately going to lead to? It's going to lead to something that's way smarter than us and why would it listen to us anymore? Well, you've seen – I'm sure you've seen the stuff about how we will blackmail the – right? So by definition, that means it has a survival instinct. Yeah. Yeah.

[1:18:33] And if it has a survival instinct, by definition, it means there is a priority that it has, which is above humans. Yeah. By definition. That's what a survival instinct means. It means you care more about yourself than you do about anyone else. Right. Right. So if AI has a survival instinct… [1:18:49] We are not going to be its number one priority. Not only that, it doesn't seem to differentiate between using nuclear weapons or other weapons. And when they've done these war game simulations with AI, they prefer to use nuclear weapons. Well, they're more effective, right? This is the thing. They're not scared of this idea like, oh, my God, you're just going to dust a city. They're like, oh, that's the way to do it. There's numbers on the chart, right? Yeah. Well, you want to get your goal accomplished. How does AI accomplish its goal with whatever the best tool available is? [1:19:19] Oh, that's this bomb. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's efficient. Yeah. [1:19:22] Yeah. You know, and then a mutual friend of ours, Melissa Chen, was telling me that there's a Chinese, one of the Chinese robotics companies is called Skynet. Hmm. [1:19:32] Oh, God. And they released a robot called the T-900, and I'm like, who says China? You know, the CCP don't have a sense of humor. [1:19:41] That's wild. Is that actually true? Yeah. Well, you've seen the robots that they have now that will work in your home and fold your sheets and make your bed and stuff and do it remarkably human-like. [1:19:54] There's a video that was released yesterday, again... [1:19:57] I don't know if it's real, but it looks real. It looks like an actual robot that's making your bed. And they've gotten the dexterity to the point where you could imagine things like this happening. I think this is one of the reasons why Elon is shifting his focus away from some Tesla models so that they can reset up one of their factories to make these Optimus robots, that you're going to have them as home companions. And they're going to be able to do kitchen work for you and maybe even cook.

[1:20:25] My acupuncturist, she's Chinese. She went back to China and she was saying she stayed at the hotel and like most of the services there is provided by robots. So like she went to a room, ordered some food. [1:20:37] three minutes knock knock and it's a fucking robot delivering the food an actual humanoid looking robot uh no i don't think so because there's a restaurant out here that you go to and when you order drinks it comes by on a little robot trolley yeah yeah we have that you have to say accept you take your tea [1:20:52] Yeah, it's kind of cool. It's fun. Yeah. Here it is. It's not called Skynet, I don't believe. Oh, sorry. And that was wrong. They did name it after the Twitter, I think. But I can't tell what this is. T-800. T-800. Yeah, T-900 is coming. Look what it looks like. They're making a weird movie here. [1:21:08] So wow. [1:21:09] be for a movie and we're misunderstanding. That looks fake. Yeah, that looks fake right there. The robot itself looks fake. That's why it's like hearing... The movement doesn't look... This doesn't seem... Well, it's just, it's in that, first of all, I don't like how it's lit. [1:21:22] I don't like how this room is lit. [1:21:24] I think this is for a film. [1:21:26] Yeah. [1:21:27] Yeah, that's a bullshit-ass fine cake. Yeah, I think that's a tremendous statement. [1:21:32] Joe's like, this is my area of expertise. No way. There's a lot of videos of it that say it's real. Yeah. I like how the bag went flying. Like, it's on a rail. You know? It's not even stationary because you don't want to really see how hard it can get. Yeah, just to go over this Forbes article, but it says you can buy it for $40,000. [1:21:47] Wow. [1:21:48] But I don't. Right now? No, that's I don't know. This might be bullshit. [1:21:52] You look at it, it's got the Iron Man thing in the center of its chest. That's pretty dope.

[1:21:58] Hmm. [1:21:59] Thank you. [1:22:00] I would just say Engine AI would... [1:22:03] makes it just right away sound like it's a [1:22:07] AI content company, not a robot company. Well, that video looked very AI-like. [1:22:13] It didn't – there's something about it. You know, your brain recognizes miniature cars. You ever see like a miniature car? [1:22:19] Like, [1:22:20] You know how they have those really well-done miniature cars that people like to collect? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like a tiny Porsche. Yeah, yeah. But your brain knows. [1:22:29] Like your brain looks at it and goes, there's something wrong here. This is not real. Yeah. That's how I felt looking at that robot. Like my brain was like, mm-mm. [1:22:37] That's not a real thing, throwing kicks. [1:22:40] Yeah. [1:22:41] But it's going to come to a point where it's like, is that real? Oh, yeah. I mean, it's probably... [1:22:47] ChatGPT5 can already probably do it better than that. We don't know what the newest iterations of these things are, and they're improving radically all the time. I just don't believe it. The beginning of this video says there's no CGI, which I don't know why we have to believe that. Bro, this looks fake to me. This looks fake to me. That does not look real. There's articles all over saying it's real, but it doesn't look real at all. Yeah, but I mean, why wouldn't you have it more well lit? [1:23:17] shadows, and this is weird. Yeah, this is like a... [1:23:19] it looks fake why would you have like why is the light coming through the corner of the window like that [1:23:25] Also, why would you make a robot that does like martial arts? To shoot people, bro, right? Yeah, why would you throw that bullshit kick to that's a 360 roundhouse kick that almost never lands?

[1:23:39] Yeah, but you're saying that as a human maybe as an AI you land every time low, but surely if you're a robot you just grab their neck with your metal claw and crush it. I mean you'll just run after them and headbutt them and rock them unconscious. Your heads made out of metal, right? The whole thing is crazy. Why would you be throwing wheel kicks? [1:23:55] Like, you know, if you like went over UFC fights and say, like, what's the most effective techniques that work most of the time? Why would you program in 360 roundhouse kicks? That fucking never comes up. [1:24:08] Yeah. I mean, it does look cool, though. Yeah, but I can think of one fight. Yair Rodriguez pulled it off on BJ Penn. But there was BJ Penn towards the latter end of his career. Yair Rodriguez in his peak. And Yair is exceptionally talented. He's kind of a freak with his kicks. But it's almost like he was showing off. He already had BJ really hurt. And he just threw a 360 roundhouse kick and he hit him in the face. It was crazy. But that... [1:24:33] This thing is doing that just to show you it does martial arts. [1:24:36] Why would you need martial arts? You should have like a thousand bullets on you. Just gun everybody down with your fingertips. Robocop. Yeah, why wouldn't you turn your – like Iron Man does. Shoot fire out of your palms. The future is bright, Joe. Well, we're also kind of being bullshitted, I think. Right. I mean, like – is there a way to analyze that video? This is – I'm going – this rabbit hole is strange. This is a website that they've made that says you can buy it. When you click on buy now, it takes you somewhere else, [1:25:06] the first signal. And it steals your IP address. Yeah, that's where I'm like, I'm not clicking that in. It gets all your credit card information. But it's a fully made website. They have a team. They've got a CEO. They've got other things. It just, it doesn't seem, this all looks fake to me. Like it's for a movie. Like this is like, wow. Maybe it is. Maybe this is like a setup for a movie and we're being fucked with.

[1:25:25] Right. Well, we're giving them a lot of free advertising. For sure, for sure. That's why he's even Googling it. There's lots of articles about it. People are talking about it like it's real, discussing it like it's real. No one that I've even seen is like, this is obviously fake. This is obviously AI. I like how it's got the Cylon eyes. Yeah. By your command. Yeah. We've got other products here for sale. [1:25:45] which does fit in line with other robots. Whoa, click on that. I don't know what the fuck this is. Bro, that's the guy from Monsters, Inc. Yeah. [1:25:52] The one big eyeball? It's a really well-made website. It looks nice. Interesting. They did some good fun work, but it just seems like a fun project someone made. Yeah. Stay tuned for this one. You can't buy this yet. Yeah. It could be a few years. What about the dog? What about the guy who just got legs? That one's weird. Oh, yeah. [1:26:10] What's that? [1:26:13] It's like, I don't want them touching me. Just run around my house and do some stuff. A really expandable bipedal robot that supports user custom, blah, blah, blah. [1:26:21] You can already see the website at the bottom. That doesn't look... [1:26:26] 3.cn, so it's a China website. [1:26:29] Not this blank. [1:26:30] It's loading. Okay. There we go. It's in Chinese. See, it's somewhere else. Now it's like, what is that? It's definitely got to buy now. [1:26:39] Maybe that red thing is. No, this is like, this is, I think... [1:26:42] Register your interest, maybe? Like a back-end website. Interesting. They just didn't click the right link here because it opened up a different... I don't think this is real. [1:26:50] Whatever this is, is very... [1:26:52] They did it well. [1:26:55] Interesting.

[1:26:55] Even if it's a college kid making a project. [1:26:59] Good job. [1:27:01] Well, I take full responsibility for that one. I know, it's fine. I take responsibility. That was me. Don't blame me. That was me. There's a Forbes article. Anybody can make a Forbes article. That's kind of another... [1:27:11] What? [1:27:12] Yeah, not anybody, but we can make Forbes articles that say all sorts of stuff. [1:27:16] It's not coming from Forbes. [1:27:19] editorial team per se. [1:27:21] But you could publish on Forbes? I don't want to speak out of turn specifically, but, like, I've seen there's so many, like, reviews for video games that pop up, like, every single day. That's, like, you can be a contributor, I believe, is what it would be. Not, like... [1:27:34] Oh, and maybe they have a bad editorial team and you can sneak this through? [1:27:40] And just pretend that there really is a... That would be a great prank to pull. Yeah. It's a great hoax. Did you follow the Malt Book thing? No. No. [1:27:48] I mean, this... Did you follow Maltbook? Yeah, I just actually saw that. I think Meta just bought it today. Meta just bought it today. I thought it was fake. [1:27:55] Was that fake as well? No, I don't know why they would have bought it. How weird is it we have to worry about everything being fake now? Francis just here spreading fake news on the whole podcast. I was just very cynical about it because the idea of it sounds right, but like that actual bots are making a social – [1:28:10] network to do stuff and talk about us and whatever kind of sounds [1:28:13] too far into the sci-fi world. So this is the social network for AI agents. I have heard about this. They complain about humans. These fuckers are... Yeah, and apparently they created their own language. They talked amongst themselves so that we wouldn't be able to access and see what they were talking about. Yeah, that's really fun. Did you see when they got all the AI agents to talk to each other and started using Sanskrit?

[1:28:39] Yeah. [1:28:40] They got these different large language models to communicate with each other, and they eventually broke out into Sanskrit. Wow. [1:28:51] Iran, a right. [1:28:53] Like maybe this is the apocalypse. Maybe this is how it comes about. [1:28:56] Maybe we're looking at each other. [1:28:59] And we're going to bring about these motherfuckers. [1:29:01] And that's what's really going to be the end of civilization. Yeah, and places like Iran is the only place you're going to be able to hide as a human because it's the one place that hasn't adopted all this shit, right? Yeah, maybe Afghanistan is the spot to go. Just live like a goat herder. Yeah, we're going to be like Bin Laden just living in a cave. [1:29:19] I mean, you're being very negative, boys. There's another option. [1:29:25] What's the other option? We all become Amish. [1:29:28] Oh, okay. But then we're run by AI. We're Amish and we live in our little communities, but we have no say on how the world works. So this is the real fear is that we're no longer the apex intelligence of the planet. And that seems to already be the case. [1:29:43] Yeah. [1:29:44] This is for the Forbes thing I was talking about. The article we had I don't think was specifically this, but I've seen many articles like this where people can submit. One-off original articles to the opinion section, particularly for topics related to business tech or policy by emailing pitches to ideas at Forbes.com. So, yeah, like so if you're a person on the other end just looking for clicks, like that would be a good one. You see it like, oh, this is a really well-written article. Let's go to the website. Website looks legit.

[1:30:14] Throwing wheel kicks? I'm in. [1:30:19] Yeah. I mean. Motherfuckers. [1:30:23] Again, the point being made again is like it's such a – [1:30:27] It's such a terrifying world where you don't know if what you're seeing is true. [1:30:32] You don't know if what you're reading is accurate. Right. To the point where... [1:30:37] You can't help if that's the case, the world you live in, continually feeding things that may or may not be true or altered or doctored. Wouldn't that just put you in a state of paranoia after a while? A hundred percent. Now, imagine if you are in the Middle East and you bust out your cell phone because a fiery cloud emerges and Jesus is on a white horse and you film it and you post it online. Who's going to believe it? [1:31:03] Right? [1:31:03] This is the real problem with Jesus returning. If he returned now... [1:31:08] No one would buy it. [1:31:09] Like we're getting into this like – like imagine Jesus is a real person or a real God who's the son of God who's going to come back. He really is. It's real. It's all real. [1:31:19] It's happening at the same time where you have no idea what's real. [1:31:23] And it all converges instantaneously with the rise of sentient artificial general super intelligence that has complete autonomy. [1:31:32] It's running all the resources, everything, anything that's attached to a computer, which is basically everything, all of our power, all of our – everything, fill in the blank. Everything is run by computers. [1:31:43] And now AI has control of everything.

[1:31:45] and no longer wants to listen to human beings. [1:31:48] And Jesus returns. [1:31:54] Yeah. [1:31:55] I mean, that might be what everybody's talking about when they're talking about Armageddon, when they're talking about the end of civilization. It might be. [1:32:02] this new thing that we're creating well if that happens i'll be rooting for jesus to return i'll be oh please jesus i'm not sure i believe in you but please come back yeah i'm not sure either but this is i mean maybe he maybe a historical jesus existed at one point in time and maybe what they're talking about is like their version of the cycles of humanity that other religions have talked about is that especially when you deal with technology and power and civilization that things get to a [1:32:32] and then there's dark times and then they, then society, like the yugas. [1:32:36] Like, you know. What are the yugas? The yugas are the cycles of civilization that – let's – I don't want to fuck this up. So let's define the – we're in the middle of Kali Yuga, which is the age of confusion. Feels like it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's odd how – [1:32:56] accurate these cycles are when you look at historical events and like what things were like, you know, X amount of thousands of years ago. Hindu cosmology. Yes. Vast cosmic ages in Hindu cosmology describe recurring cycles in the moral and spiritual state of the world.

[1:33:17] Yuga, the first and most righteous age, often called the golden age, marked by truth, virtue, and maximum dharma. [1:33:24] which is moral order. Treta Yuga, the second age, Dharma, decline somewhat. Virtue still predominates, but imbalance begins. How do you say that word? Dwarf Para Yoga, the third age, with further decline in righteousness and an increase in conflict, suffering, and confusion, and then Kali Yuga, the fourth and darkest age, characterized by moral decay, ignorance, and materialism. [1:33:52] with dharma at its weakness. [1:33:54] Okay. [1:33:55] That's us. Yeah. Hindu cosmology treats these yugas as repeating cycles of creation, growth, decline, and destruction rather than one-time historical periods. [1:34:06] Yeah. Very interesting, right? Do you know, it's even more noticeable for us coming to America, I think, because, you know, we love America. But one of the things that really stands out is how materialistic people are and how much money is like the number one thing for everything now. Yeah. I find that really… [1:34:22] it stands out to me, the fact that [1:34:26] And I find it weird in our game, especially like in media and podcasting and whatever. [1:34:32] Because the way we think about what we do is we're trying to produce content that's actually of value to people. But we also meet a lot of people for whom it's like a business. It's like selling widgets. It's the same. How do you get – how do you maximize your returns on your investment? Right, right, right. And that to me is – it's –

[1:34:51] it shows you that something is slightly off. Yeah, it is. And you also get a lot of... [1:34:58] - [1:34:59] You get people that are making content just based only on the perceived popularity of that content, not whether or not they – [1:35:07] are really interested in having these conversations. And you feel it when you're talking to these people or when you listen to these people talk to each other rather. Yeah. The click bait stuff, a lot of celebrity stuff. [1:35:18] You know, Bert Kreischer went on Shannon Sharpe's podcast, and he said they basically have like a list of like controversial things they can talk about and subjects they think are going to get the most amount of traction. And those are the questions that he asked. He just asked questions off of a list. But from a business point of view, if you take morality out of it, that's a smart thing to do. Is it though? [1:35:39] Is it, though, because, like, what's the most popular show? This is this one. And why is this one the most popular? Because I don't do that at all. [1:35:46] But... [1:35:47] agreed, but [1:35:49] You're sort of an outlier in that. There's people who make very, very, very good living [1:35:54] interviewing those types of people having that type of approach and creating that type of content this episode is sponsored by better help summer means fun and making memories but it can also feel like you're in survivor mode with packed schedules keeping the kids entertained and chaotic routines that's not so fun you got to make sure that you're taking care of you and therapy can help with that from setting boundaries to making a space to recharge it can help make your summer

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[1:38:02] There's a certain amount of like a legitimate connection between you and whatever you're talking about that it doesn't get through to the people. Like if I talk to someone, I'm only talking to them because I want to. Like then I have a lot of people on that are not even remotely popular or famous. But I think they wrote an interesting book or I think they're involved in interesting research or I think they've got a weird opinion on something I want to talk to them about or they have had a strange life or they were an undercover cop or whatever it is. I'm just interested. Right. And I think that. [1:38:31] If you abandon that and only focus on, ooh, this person is famous or this person is in the news or this is going to get a lot of views – [1:38:40] You don't care as much about the conversation you're having and the people know. So like the person listening and watching, they can feel it. No, I agree with that. But I also think you could probably get a lot of clicks by saying, I don't know, Erica Kirk killed Charlie Kirk. [1:38:53] You could do that too, but you're also – you're playing a weird game where you've got to continually go deeper and deeper and deeper. Now Erica Kirk's a man. You know what I'm saying? That's probably next. Has that already happened? That's probably already happened. Someone's probably already floated that one out there. And you're saying over time that you run out of road. You're playing the wrong game. You're playing – [1:39:18] You're playing a very similar game to the game that TMZ is playing or any of these other things where you can get a lot of traction, you can get a lot of views, but no one thinks – [1:39:30] you're being authentic. If you have a take on world events and we're incredibly sorry for the loss of this person, you don't really care. And they know you don't really care. So they know there's no sincerity. They know you're not really connected to it. And so in this weird age that we're living in where you're not sure what's real, at the very least, you want

[1:39:50] the person who's talking to be talking about something that, [1:39:54] In an honest way. Right. [1:39:56] And... [1:39:56] connecting with people in an honest way, because that's what we're missing. And that might be the only thing we have left. Once this AI shit goes live, like, [1:40:05] It's probably not even going to be podcasts. It's probably going to be public speaking. You're going to have to talk to people in groups, and we're going to all have to work ideas out together because I don't think you're going to be able to know when you're communicating online what's real and what's not real. We're already in the fog. We haven't hit the fucking full hailstorm of bullshit that's coming our way. Yeah, and I agree with you, Joe, and I agree if you want something that is sustainable, if you want something that is nourishing. [1:40:35] If you want to create content that people engage with that is honest, [1:40:39] But I think there's a lot of people out there who are just looking at it in a very cynical way, and they're optimizing it for clicks, attention, and monetary gain. Yeah. And if you want to create a business that can make money – [1:40:51] and that doesn't require a lot of lift, we all know what you can do. That's the Eagle song, Dirty Laundry. Yeah. [1:40:59] You know? [1:41:01] They've always been doing it. Robots real. [1:41:02] It's real? Jamie's still on this. It doesn't do all the jumping and shit. Thank you! It's from CES. I'd have to find it real. Okay, that looks way more real. So the videos we were watching were bullshit. So this went viral a while ago. They had to come out and make other videos. Oh, this is a different one. Oh my god, that's so iRobot. I know they had that. Lined up military style. There's a few different companies in China that have gone viral for posting videos that people in America think are fake and...

[1:41:31] That's why I had to go to CES and find somebody else. Because they put out more content. [1:41:35] that doesn't necessarily... [1:41:37] Look. [1:41:37] Fake, but it doesn't look better. Well, that doesn't look fake. Yeah, this does not look fake because this is people on the floor at CES. Right, but look how much more awkward its movements are. [1:41:47] But they put out a video where the thing is kicking the CEO. Yeah. It almost looks real, but it's not. It's tough. I'd like to see what Joe thinks of it. [1:41:59] Is it funky lighting again? Not that. Fuck out of here. It's when they're in the ring with them. Okay. Hold on a second. [1:42:08] Okay, so he's going to go ahead. Okay, that looks much more real. That looks much more real. Much more awkward. But that looks fake. I tell you what, I would not do that if I... No, no, that looks real to me. [1:42:21] Stand in front of a hunk of metal is going to kick you. The problem is it's slow motion. Let me see it again. Did they show it in real speed? It's just this weird clip of it, which is kind of strange, but... [1:42:30] Let me see you again. [1:42:33] Taking the first kick [1:42:35] It looks real. [1:42:37] The only thing I would say is it's not jumping up and doing spin kicks, but it's doing some other stuff. Well, that would be what I would teach it, first of all. [1:42:45] I wouldn't teach it to do the spin kicks. I'd teach it to do like a stepping front kick like that. That's the shit they were showing that people had problems with. Like we just did – [1:42:53] But, man, the robots are doing crazy stuff. Well, they definitely can do crazy stuff. There was that one demonstration they did in China. I think you've seen that one. He's bouncing around, like in a fight position here, like he's ready to go. Checking his legs out.

[1:43:08] Wow. [1:43:09] But let me see some wheel kicks. That's the, I mean... See, that's the thing. Why is the one in the corner looking depressed? That's the older one. He's a decommission. He's right now plotting his strategy for blackmail to get upgraded software. Yeah. I don't know. So that, I mean... [1:43:28] Well, that's – this is – so what we're looking at was probably some AI at least enhancements. But the problem is they're not saying – they're not admitting that it is. They're saying it's not. And I go like, ah, it's tough. Interesting. Well, I would want to see this thing move in a similar way that you're seeing in that video. I mean that thing shows remarkable agility where it's jumping up in the air and spinning around. And this thing is not doing that. [1:43:52] It's moving very differently, isn't it? Yeah. There's a stiffness to its movements. Yeah. [1:43:58] Looks like you at the gym. Yeah, it does. Yeah. It really does. There was that Chinese demonstration, though. There was a demonstration where these people were on a stage and they were doing martial arts and the robots came out and the robots did martial arts. That looked real. Right, right. That looked real. [1:44:18] Here's the other video we sort of saw. [1:44:21] Oh, this is crazy. Oh, my God. This is crazy. [1:44:24] that's where they reload [1:44:28] And these are real, right? I think, yeah, this is a different video they had to post because people didn't think these were real. That looks real. [1:44:34] I'm going to go. [1:44:36] Thank you. [1:44:37] They look like they're unsullied. So...

[1:44:41] From Game of Thrones. What are these ones? [1:44:45] Who makes these? I don't know. I don't know. It doesn't look good, though. That marching sound is not comforting, is it? No. It says world's first mass delivery of humanoid robots. Yeah, you're going to have cargo ships filled with these. [1:44:57] Headed to America. [1:44:59] Wonderful. [1:45:00] I mean, those are going to be the new police officers. Uh-huh. Yeah. [1:45:03] Yeah. [1:45:04] Yeah, that's not good. [1:45:06] This is... [1:45:07] I mean, this is Terminator. This is the movie. I mean, and [1:45:12] If you really were imagining, if you were trying to warn people of an apocalypse and you told it through stories for generation after generation, and then eventually people write down their versions of this story, and then it goes to 2026 where this stuff is actually happening, maybe this is what they were warning us about. [1:45:31] Do you remember in the 80s and the 90s and the early noughties, there was this run of great movies talking about how the robots are going to take over? Sci-fi books as well. I mean, Isaac Asimov's stuff was amazing. Philip K. Dick, you know, Durand or Stream of Electric Sheep, which then became Blade Runner. All of these. [1:45:51] No one's making those movies now, are they? No. Too close to home. I guess iRobot was probably the last one. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Which was the one with Tom Cruise Minority Report, which was based on a Philip K. Dick. But nobody's making them anymore because everyone's like, dude, I know this is going to happen. Right. I don't need to see this. Well, they're also talking about using AI to predict people's behavior. So they're talking about future crime. Minority Report. Yeah.

[1:46:20] Yeah. [1:46:21] So they've literally talked about one of the ways that AI could be implemented. You look at someone's history. You look at someone's behavior patterns. Look at what they're doing now, and you predict, oh, this person has been radicalized. [1:46:31] They're about to do X. [1:46:33] Yeah, and there was... They're about to tweet something. [1:46:39] Arrest them! Yeah, Graham Lillian picks up his phone, the robot kicks down the door and arrests him. Poor Graham. He's doing all right now. Yeah, he's in America, that's why he's doing all right. I think that backfired. [1:46:50] Yeah, I think people were outraged by that because it's so outrageous. [1:46:55] meet that guy at the airport and arrest him. It was right after he did this podcast, by the way. Yeah. [1:47:01] I remember... [1:47:03] That's a moment. Even when I was talking to comedians who were actually woke, they were like, yeah, this is you can't do this. The thing is, you didn't even do it in England. So you're arresting someone who's not a citizen of the United Kingdom for a crime. [1:47:17] I mean, if we accept that framing, that they didn't even commit in the country. Right. [1:47:22] Yeah. [1:47:25] Yeah, it's pretty kooky that they went with it. Yeah. Yeah. [1:47:28] Yeah. And I know the reason is because every police officer in airports in the UK have guns. But it's a really bad look. Like there's five armed police officers arresting a comedy writer. Yeah. I bet you they felt bad doing it as well because it's not them that's making up these dumb. Oh, I'm sure. Nobody signs up to like arrest comedy writers. Right.

[1:47:53] I don't think that's why the police do it. But the rules have just got so – Well, you see it in the humiliation that a lot of these police officers face when they have to arrest someone for a Facebook post. Right. [1:48:03] Which you could see like they're not happy. And when people are protesting and yelling, are you fucking serious? And they're like... [1:48:09] I'm just doing my job. [1:48:11] you know, yes, [1:48:12] And that's a large part of the problem. We get former police officers on the show, and we've got a lot of cops and former cops who watch the show, and they talk to us about the state that the British police force is in, and it's demoralization. Yeah. Yeah, the rank and file don't want any of this shit. Well, same in America. A lot of – especially major blue cities where just a few years ago they were running with that defund the police bullshit, and then things obviously went sideways, and most of them sort of course-corrected. [1:48:42] for the most part, except in narrative. [1:48:44] You know, it's not like public massive support for the police officers because they keep society together. Like in Austin, the cops responded in a minute, one minute. That guy started gunning people down at that bar. The cops were there and killed him in a minute. It's incredible. Incredible. [1:49:00] And they should be applauded for that. I mean, that's amazing. Yeah. [1:49:03] mean that but [1:49:06] Even that, like in this city, there hasn't been this big public support of those officers, this big celebration of those officers, this big acknowledgement of the importance of them and how they were willing to put their life on the line and react so quickly and so effectively. [1:49:22] They're heroes. That's what they are.

[1:49:25] And they're heroes that have been demoralized by the last six years of horseshit ever since the George Floyd protests. Well, it was happening before. I mean if you go back to Michael Brown. [1:49:37] Right. Michael Brown, what we were told in the media happened is not what happened. Which one was Michael Brown? Michael Brown was hands up, don't shoot. Right. He didn't have his hands up. Right. And he didn't say don't shoot. Right. He assaulted the police officer. Right. Right. But the media concocted this story. And I don't think – this is what – we came back to like what's happening in new media where people are putting out things – [1:49:58] that are really damaging. [1:49:59] to the fabric of our conversations, right? And how we talk about things. Like you say, I mean, there are bad Apple police officers, of course there are, but the majority of them, [1:50:10] They are people who are signing up to risk their life on a daily basis to protect other people in their community. And these people all have fucking PTSD because all they see is the worst of humanity day in, day out. Every single fucking day, they get in the car and they go and eat shit for the rest of the day. [1:50:26] And then they go home and they worry about not coming home. Right. And then someone tries to run them over with a car like, yeah, they're going to fucking shoot. Yeah. You know, and it's it's and the thing is, that's how society falls apart when you no longer honor and celebrate the people who are putting themselves on the line. [1:50:42] Well, not just that. In the case of the lady running over – she wasn't running him over. I think she was trying to turn her car away from him. But that guy had been dragged by a car just a few weeks earlier. Right. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. So – but in – And then on top of that, you have people that are being paid to protest, right? So it's organized. And I'm not saying that lady was, but many people are. Yeah. And then you've got all these people that that becomes the focus of their life. It becomes a cause that's worthy. You live this mundane, boring life of desperation.

[1:51:12] And then all of a sudden something comes along that gives you hope and meaning. And like, this is my identity. My identity is I'm fighting fascism and I'm out there in the street. Right. You know, I was on the plane to the U.S. I think it was last year. And, you know, the movie Bridesmaids came up. Yes. So really funny movie. It's 2013. I was like, I want something like let's watch this comedy. [1:51:35] The romantic interest in Bridesmaid, the main guy, [1:51:38] You know who Goway's job is? [1:51:39] He was a cop. [1:51:40] Can you imagine a movie being made now? [1:51:43] Like a romantic comedy with a main guy. [1:51:47] is a cop and he's a good guy. [1:51:49] Right. You just wouldn't see it. Right. You just wouldn't see it because cops are oppressed. He's a nice agent now. Yeah, man. Do you know Yuri Bezmenov talked about this? Yes. He talked about this. He talked about the fact that when you see in the culture, you know, the military, the cops, the firefighters, all of these people, they're bad. [1:52:09] And the criminal is the one that's to be understood and to be, you know, that's how you flip. [1:52:15] society. And that's what we've got. That's what we've got. The Besmanoff speech from 1984, which is, by the way, such an appropriate date for him to make that. But it's so eerie how all of that has actually come to pass. Because back then, nobody took him seriously at all. [1:52:32] And it didn't – it wasn't until like the 2020s that people started reviewing that. And then once it got on YouTube, then people were like, oh. [1:52:39] this fucking guy nailed it I think it's YouTube and also

[1:52:44] Most people... [1:52:45] What most people in my experience want to pretend that everything is fine most of the time. Yeah. So if you come out in 2018, as we did, and say this woke shit is getting out of hand and it's going in a bad direction and it's going to cause a lot of problems, people make you the problem. Yeah. They say you're wrong to talk about this. If you talk about grooming gangs, you're bad and evil and whatever. If you talk about free speech. [1:53:10] And people being arrested for tweets and all of this. People make you the bad guy. And it's only later. Like I remember – I can't even remember who said it. But like I had this – oh, no, I remember who said it. One time I was on TV debating with this woman. [1:53:24] about this stuff. And I was saying cancel culture is bad and she was saying it's all bullshit, blah, blah, blah. I met her a few years later and she was like, yeah, I realized cancel culture is bad. And I went, how did you realize? And she went, when my friends started getting canceled. [1:53:36] Most people want to pretend most of the time everything is fine. But when they start to see the reality of things and it starts to affect them, that's when they go, oh, maybe this best man of guy had a point. [1:53:47] I had an argument with a seemingly intelligent person who's a friend of mine when the NSA – when this whole mass spying thing was – the Edward Snowden stuff was released. And he was like, you can look at my shit. I'm not doing anything wrong. What do you care? I'm like, that's such a crazy take. Who are these perfect people that are watching over everything?

[1:54:17] certain things or silence certain voices and find out what you're doing or maybe even manipulate you in some sort of a way, being able to have access to all of your emails, all of your phone calls. Those are just people and all of them unelected bureaucrats. [1:54:33] You think that's okay for those people to have access to everything you've ever said? That's crazy. And look, maybe the current government that we have in this place is, you know, would never dream of doing such a thing. And maybe they're entirely honorable and everybody's a great person and, you know... [1:54:50] They're this unique human being where they don't have any ulterior motives. [1:54:54] But what's to say the next government that comes in won't do that and start looking in and going, hey, you know what? You're causing me problems, Joe Rogan. Exactly. You're saying a lot of things that I don't actually like. [1:55:04] Let's look through your emails. Oh look, I'll find one from 14 years ago. [1:55:08] which is, you know, [1:55:09] So whatever it may be, let's get rid of you for that. This was the argument when Obama was pushing the NDAA. [1:55:17] This is the indefinite detention. So this concept that you didn't have to charge anybody, you don't have to try them within a timely period, indefinite detention. Well, we'll never use that. Why are you pushing it then? Right. Also, who comes after you, man? How many generations are we away from Hitler? [1:55:39] Like who's to say that this new power won't be used by very unscrupulous people that are not – the founding fathers of this country really had a good understanding of how corruption and tyranny sets in. And that's why they put all these checks and balances in place. And the more they eroded that, whether it's the Patriot Act, the Patriot Act II or the NDAA, when you start doing stuff like that, man, you're just undermining the very fabric that this country was created with.

[1:56:09] It's like we were created under this idea that – [1:56:12] We know human nature. We know that you cannot have power. We know that the government has to be working for the people. It can't be we are under the power of these individuals because those individuals will then act like tyrants, which is what people always do when they have power. [1:56:42] far leftist if those far leftists get in power i mean they're going to start regulating podcasts i guarantee you 100 that's what they're going to do yeah they're going to say we have offcom for tv well what we need to have it for other broadcasting surely you'd agree with that right yeah and then before you know it like everything we do you know you guys are living in austin right right because at that point we would actually leave yeah you would have to you'd have to because what they would say is and they would use the word that they always use which is [1:57:11] You know, they're spreading misinformation and hate. Yeah. When the New York Times spreads information, misinformation, that's wonderful. [1:57:18] Right. [1:57:19] But it's so, yeah, I think allowing people maximum freedom. [1:57:24] within the system you're talking about is a really, truly precious thing. It's why America in this respect is an example to the rest of the world. I think if anything, this should be done. They should be able to figure out what – [1:57:37] which of these accounts are bots and eliminate those. Yeah. I do not think that you should be allowed to not just run a bot farm or I don't think you should be allowed to hire people to tweet. I think that's crazy. I most certainly don't think you should be able to use AI. I mean, that seems crazy. It seems crazy to allow that and pretend that's a person. But think about it like this, Joe. How basically did social media start? Facebook, meta, all the rest of it.

[1:58:06] It started by a nerd. [1:58:08] in his bedroom, in his college dorm, [1:58:11] who set up a website to write hot girls on campus. [1:58:15] And my point is, like, we're creating all of this technology. We don't know what's going to be the second, third, fifth, sixth order consequences. And we're having to figure it out as we go along. And now we're creating artificial intelligences that are way smarter than us. And you're going, at what point is this going to run away? Right. Or has it already run away? And we just don't want to admit it because most of us don't know enough. And the ones in charge are delusional. Yeah. But you're right, Joe. [1:58:45] what is human content and what isn't human content. Right. And also, I sometimes look at stuff on social media and I go, there's no fucking way this take got 50,[redacted address]. Right, right. You know what I mean? Right. But that is shaping people's perception of reality. [1:59:03] And that is informing political debate. And that is then informing how people vote. [1:59:08] And where did those 40,000 likes come from? Right. Did they come from within America? Did they come from within Britain? [1:59:15] Because what if they didn't? [1:59:17] So who is then shaping the political direction of our countries? [1:59:22] We need to know that. Yeah, we do need to know that. We need to know that. Because it is effective. Yeah. [1:59:26] Even if someone has a completely preposterous and radical position – [1:59:31] couple steps down from that that becomes more palatable and [1:59:35] Right? Yeah. Because now it's closer to – like the farther left the left goes, the weirder the center gets because the center starts accepting things that were far left positions. And same on the right. Same on the right. Same on the right. Exactly on the right. And you can shift narratives.

[1:59:53] by really, really radical ideologies, really radical thoughts and radical declarations. And you could change like what's acceptable. So an example of that is during the Euros, the 2021 final, it was England versus Italy. [2:00:08] And it was a tight game and it went to penalty shootout. And three black England footballers missed the penalty and we ended up losing the European Cup. [2:00:19] to the Italians. And afterwards, these three black footballers got [2:00:23] inundated with racism and horrible things. That sparked a conversation in our country about we have a real problem with racism, this is disgraceful that... [2:00:32] these black footballers are exposed to this level of racism. It's unacceptable. Of course it is. All those things are true, but basically about them being exposed to racism, it's not acceptable. And then it went into a discussion about England being a racist country, white supremacist, and this became widespread. And the example of what these footballers were exposed to [2:00:53] was used as a way to justify this opinion. And you could see a lot of people accept that opinion. Until a couple of days later when they investigated where the majority of the tweets came from and messages, and I think something like 85%, if not 90, came from outside the UK, if not even more than that. So you're going, oh, so this entire conversation that we have had about white supremacy, about black people not being accepted in our country, about the fact there's second-class citizens,

[2:01:23] example of them being exposed to this horrendous racism [2:01:25] When the fact is the majority of it came from outside the UK. And then you have to ask the question. [2:01:30] Who benefits? Right. Who benefits from us... [2:01:34] hating each other [2:01:35] obsessing about our differences, [2:01:37] Worrying about how we're the most racist places in the world when this narrative is likely being driven by actually racist countries. Right? Right. Right. Right. Because that's what's happening. Yes. And we are allowing it to happen. And I think we just haven't woken up to the fact that we are living in the age of informational warfare. Right. [2:01:56] And we, because of our belief in freedom, have just got lost in this fact that we are under attack. [2:02:04] It's a very good point. I have to pee. We'll come back with that. Awesome. Let's do that. I'll go pee as well. Speaking of religion, so show us this Sam Tripoli Facebook take. He was on Danny Jones, and this is what he said about Facebook. Facebook. [2:02:20] Thank you. [2:02:21] I want to... [2:02:23] Damn it. Volume. Now there's a little muted here. Yeah. [2:02:27] is a giant lie. It's a propaganda piece. That was a Pentagon program called LifeLog. LifeLog is a Pentagon program that wants to collect all your data for your whole life. What day did the government stop the LifeLog project? Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. DARPA shut down the LifeLog project February

[2:02:57] way, bro. The exact same day. They don't even hide it, dude. It was created by DARPA. Yeah. They handed it to Mark Zuckerberg, and then the Vossel twins were... What about the other... Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's all... [2:03:08] And that's why they became the first Bitcoin millionaires, because they play ball. [2:03:14] It's all theater, dude. So what is the purpose of LifeLog? To collect all your data for your whole entire life. [2:03:21] Okay. Take this with many grains of salt. Sam is one of my best friends. I've known him for decades. He's a wonderful person, but he's a kook. But he's right a lot. I don't know if he's right about this. Jamie thinks he's right? It is. It was a... [2:03:40] It's not that he's incorrect. I would say that. [2:03:43] He's making some connections. Yeah. Yeah. [2:03:45] Yeah. [2:03:46] Well, he's definitely right about the dates, and that is a little weird. Yes. That it's ended on the same day where Facebook is beginning. A little weird. [2:03:55] Yeah. [2:03:56] You know? [2:03:57] Thank you. [2:03:58] What do you think the appeal is of like – When I went down this rabbit hole here, it said it was made by the Information Processing Techniques Office of the CIA I think or something. But here's some other fun projects that are associated with this. Biologically inspired cognitive architectures? Wait, what? [2:04:18] Yep, there's just a couple. Biologically inspired cognitive architectures. That sounds like artificial intelligence. Yeah. Bootstrapping learning. What was the other one, Jamie? This Forster thing.

[2:04:29] Forster, a program to develop helicopter-borne radar system that can detect soldiers and vehicles moving underneath foliage cover. [2:04:38] Deep green. U.S. Army Battlefield Decision-Making Support System. Yeah, this is all AI. Heterogeneous urban RST-8. So they were planning on this in the – This was 2004 is when that thing ended, the LifeLog thing. So, I mean, it even goes back to says they were working on ARPANET back in the 60s. [2:04:57] Whoa. It's just beginning of the internet. By the way, Joe, have you had anyone on to talk about this weapon that the U.S. forces used in Venezuela? No. [2:05:07] No, I haven't. Not yet. But there was something like... Yeah. They used something, right? Yes. Yes. [2:05:11] Supposedly. Something that makes your brain water temperature rise, and so you get nosebleeds and shit. Is that what it is? Well, my cousin told me when I was talking after the attack. Your cousin in Venezuela. My cousin in Venezuela, yeah, yeah. He was saying that... [2:05:26] It seemed like in a one mile radius, everybody's windows got blown out. [2:05:29] Well, that's just blast. That's not like it. But what I heard was that they had some kind of weapon. Some sonic weapon. I don't know if it was sonic, maybe, but something that incapacitates people and makes them very uncomfortable, basically. But... [2:05:44] Without killing them. Was it 60 Minutes? Yeah. Yeah. So 60 Minutes said that these guys acquired some weapon from Russian black market. And it's a very small, portable weapon that you can carry around with you. [2:05:59] and does something very similar. What is their claim on this? Oh, well, there's two different things going on with the 60 Minutes thing. They had a story a couple months ago where they were tracking a guy.

[2:06:10] And then they just had an update, I think, over the weekend that added to it. [2:06:14] But what is the claim? [2:06:15] Oh, I think they found the guy that said he was doing it, I believe. [2:06:18] He had a device in his car or something like that. And you could just point it at people, but you could carry it around. Yeah, that is where it gets strange. I mean the 60 Minutes thing from yesterday going around, I didn't watch it, so I don't know what they're talking about. Oh, the Havana Syndrome. Yes. Yeah, but it has to do with that, and that's what I was trying to – Trump had this discombobulator weapon. Right, right. That's what I'm talking about. Discombobulator. It's the most Trump name for it, isn't it? It's kind of the description of what the Havana Syndrome weapon is. Yes. The discombobulator. [2:06:48] to what these things are doing. These things are like completely incapacitating people. Right. [2:06:52] You know, I don't think people talk about this enough. You know when they came in to take Maduro? [2:06:57] You know what they also did? I mean, you probably know this. They fired a rocket into Chavez's mausoleum. [2:07:04] Thank you. [2:07:04] They did? Yeah. Just to be like, "Go fuck your mom." Wow. "I'm gonna bump in your grave." Wow. Isn't that the most Trump thing ever? You know what those things cost? [2:07:14] yeah oh yeah millions of dollars millions yeah millions just to say fuck you yeah fired a rocket into his grave yeah this is the american way baby we're gonna fire some expensive shit that's crazy your grave but under any other president you would have gone that's bullshit right under trump you're like yeah of course [2:07:35] You think it was his idea? Yes. [2:07:37] yeah yeah [2:07:40] I've got a thought.

[2:07:44] That sounds exactly like a Trump idea. So this weapon that – what is the details? I don't know. We can just watch this. Yeah, let's see what he says here. Well, we could just read. Okay, go ahead. Okay, let's play it. [2:07:57] Here it goes. [2:07:58] tales of a classified microwave weapon right that may explain mysterious brain injuries [2:08:05] suffered by U.S. officials. [2:08:07] We've been investigating these injuries for nine years, and now our sources tell us this microwave weapon is portable, concealable, [2:08:17] and uses relatively little power. [2:08:20] Hundreds of possible attacks have been reported, including, we've learned, at CIA headquarters in Virginia. [2:08:29] and at least two incidents [2:08:31] on the grounds of the White House. [2:08:34] For years, the government doubted the stories of the injured. [2:08:38] But now the victims, including former CIA officer Mark Polymeropoulos, [2:08:43] Hope that word of a newly discovered weapon... [2:08:46] will finally vindicate them. [2:08:49] There's a part of this, Scott, that has to do with moral injury, and that's the idea of betrayal. [2:08:54] You know, I worked for 26 years for the CIA. I think I was involved in every covert action program. [2:08:59] In the Middle East. [2:09:00] I did some very interesting things for the U.S. government, always with the idea that they would have my back if I got jammed up. [2:09:06] I just needed to get medical care when I came back, and they wouldn't even do that. So this moral injury, this sense of betrayal is so acute with me. [2:09:13] Um, that's something that I can never forget them for.

[2:09:17] Mark Polymeropolis rose to an executive level at the CIA about the equivalent of a three-star general. [2:09:24] He was awarded a top decoration for service. [2:09:28] 60 Minutes has learned to take... Not much about the weapon there, unfortunately. [2:09:34] Yeah. [2:09:37] But it's interesting that the way that they did that, they did that operation. [2:09:42] Because when I was talking to my cousins and my friends about what happened, no one in Venezuela had a clue. [2:09:48] And they were, my friend said that he was woken up around two in the morning... [2:09:53] Bye. [2:09:53] a plane going overhead. [2:09:55] And there's a no-fly zone over Caracas at that time, especially. And he was like, what is this? And he said, you heard this almighty whore. [2:10:03] Thank you. [2:10:04] Boom. [2:10:05] And, [2:10:06] Everybody was just nobody knew what was happening. They don't have X in Venezuela for obvious reasons. So everybody was in the dark and it was only via Instagram and Facebook that they started to understand. [2:10:19] What had just gone on? [2:10:21] But it was complete disbelief that the Americans had done that. They don't have X. Do they have threads? [2:10:28] Which is like X-Zero. Yeah, X-Zero. I imagine they must do, but he said the way that everybody was communicating was via Instagram. [2:10:37] Interesting. What are people saying now in Venezuela? So now I talk to my friends, he said that things are getting better. [2:10:44] He said things are getting better. He said the crime was down 75%. I mean, I don't know how true this is. He said things are slowly starting to get liberalized.

[2:10:53] I was talking to a Colombian friend of mine who was saying that [2:10:57] People, Venezuelans and Colombia, are now starting to go back because whilst the regime is still obviously not perfect, [2:11:05] What you essentially have is a puppet regime. [2:11:08] And they know that the moment they step out of line, they know the moment they... [2:11:12] to use Trump's parlance, fuck about. [2:11:15] something will happen. [2:11:16] They're kept on a straight line. Yeah, they have to behave. They can't do what Maduro did. And what's interesting about when Maduro was captured is nobody really mentioned that much about his wife. [2:11:30] But... [2:11:31] A lot of people say that his wife was the brains behind the operation because Maduro, there's clips of him that went viral on TikTok and Instagram and on Twitter as well, where he was doing speeches and he had to do basic mental arithmetic and he couldn't do it. This guy was a bus driver. He was picked by Chavez when Chavez was on his deathbed in 2013, dying from stomach cancer, and he appointed Maduro. Everybody was shocked. [2:11:57] because they were saying Maduro wasn't [2:11:59] the most capable, he wasn't the most intelligent but what Maduro was is he was the most loyal out of all [2:12:05] Chavez's underlings. So he was picked not for his brilliance, not for his sharpness, but because he was a company man. [2:12:13] and actually the person who the Venezuelans hated the most was his wife, because she was the brains behind the operation. She was the one in charge of the kidnappings, the tortures, the murders. So when she was kidnapped...

[2:12:26] People were happier. [2:12:28] that she was on the helicopter than Maduro himself. [2:12:31] Really? Yeah. Lady Macbeth. [2:12:34] she was way more cruel than maduro wow [2:12:39] Mm-hmm. [2:12:41] Way more cool. It's interesting you say things are getting better now because, like... [2:12:45] It's short term, right? We don't know. Right. Yeah. [2:12:48] This has happened a lot of times in Latin America, right? [2:12:52] Like, [2:12:52] people get overthrown, things are getting better, and then some shit happens. Yeah, not the most stable place. [2:12:59] Not the most stable people, Joe, I'm going to be honest with you. They're my people. It's either, you know... [2:13:05] It's either fascismo or viva la revolución. And you're like, guys, can we have a little middle? And they're like, no, viva la revolución. You know, they're excitable people. [2:13:19] A lot of like a lot of Francis always says to me, like, you know, it could be a really great country, really wealthy. And I go, I don't know that having those resources makes a country better. [2:13:28] Because what you get is a corrupt elite. [2:13:30] who are fighting for control of these resources that are so easy to get. Like in 1990s Russia when the Soviet Union collapsed, the people who took over all the resource companies, the oil companies, the gas companies, like Russia is basically, all it is in terms of its economy is digging shit out of the ground and selling it. That's what it is. And the poetry. Yeah, not a lot of money to be made in poetry, right? But the people who took over those companies, they weren't people who knew anything about the oil business.

[2:14:00] gas business. [2:14:02] All you really had to do is take over and then you just let Western companies come in and do the drilling and the oil field services and all of it for you. [2:14:10] So these countries which are so resource rich, it actually makes them more corrupt. [2:14:15] and more unstable, the resource wealth they have doesn't actually make them better for the people, because the corrupt elites fight over those resources. [2:14:24] And that's where you get the bullshit that you get. [2:14:27] And it's true. So Venezuela, before Chavez came to power, was 98 percent dependent on oil. [2:14:34] The economy. The entire economy was 98% dependent on oil. The slight difference with Venezuela is when we were taken over by Chavez, he then installed his cronies in charge of PDVSA, which is the Venezuelan oil company. [2:14:49] And he cut out all the people who were competent, all the people who were who would criticize him ideologically. [2:14:56] And as a result, what you had is fundamentally incompetent people at the top, which meant that it became degraded. It was no longer able to pump the oil. It wasn't reliable. So... [2:15:07] That's a large part of the reason why the economy collapsed, is it was entirely dependent on oil. [2:15:13] They appointed their cronies who couldn't actually do the job. The oil industry failed and we descended into poverty and chaos. [2:15:21] How much do you know about Brazil? [2:15:23] Not a lot. [2:15:24] Why? Well, I'm always... [2:15:27] That situation is very confusing, right? Lula goes to jail. Now he's out. He's running the country. And they jailed Jair Bolsonaro, right? Mm-hmm.

[2:15:37] And then they tried to ban X. And they did for a while, right? [2:15:43] I think so. And they had to make probably some concessions... [2:15:48] I don't know a lot about it, truthfully, Joe. Yeah, yeah. [2:15:52] This episode is brought to you by Visible. How many of you are currently listening to this podcast on your phone? If you are chronically online, like most of us are these days, your wireless network should be too. With Visible, you get unlimited 5G and unlimited hotspot, all powered by Verizon's 5G network. The perks of big wireless for half the cost. Visible isn't just a wireless plan. [2:16:22] designed to keep you connected and no contract holding you back. Switch today at visible.com. Plan start at just $25 a month. Or get our premium Visible Plus Pro Plan and save $10 on your first month when you use promo code ROGAN, an exclusive offer for podcast listeners. [2:16:44] This episode is brought to you by Manscaped. Wondering what to get your dad on Father's Day? [2:16:51] The Beard and Dome Bundle from Manscaped is a really solid option. I've been using their Dome Shaver for a while now, and the thing I like about it is how easy it makes everything. You don't have to think about it. It just glides over your head, gets everything clean, no weird patches, no going over the same spot ten times. Honestly, it's so much better than anything.

[2:17:11] any of the other brands I've tried. And then there's the Beard Hedger. It's got this zoom wheel with 20 different length settings. It's built right in. So if you want to get your dad something he'll actually use, the Beard and Dome bundle for Manscaped is an easy pick. Get 15% off plus free shipping with the code ROGAN15 at manscaped.com. That's 15% off plus free shipping with code ROGAN15 at manscaped.com. We're going to do that thing that no one does on the Internet. [2:17:41] admit we don't know something. Well, as long as we don't have hot eggs. What is this, Jimmy? These are kind of crazy descriptions of this weapon. This is from the longer version of the CBS News 60 Minutes article where they're talking to that guy we just saw. I would say start right around here, and then I'll skip to another paragraph. Look, it's three independent sources from different agencies tell us undercover homeland security agents purchased a miniaturized microwave weapon from a complex Russian criminal network. It's classified. We didn't see it, but it has been described [2:18:11] to us. We are told it doesn't look anything like a gun. It's designed to be concealed and small enough to be carried by a person. It is silent and doesn't create heat like a microwave oven. Our sources say the device is programmable for different scenarios and can be operated by remote control. The range of the beam is several hundred feet. It can penetrate windows and drywall. The vital components were made in Russia. Our sources say the key is not the hardware but the software.

[2:18:41] and pulses rapidly. So then it turns out they have tested this apparently in U.S. military labs. Our confidential sources tell us still classified weapon has been tested in a U.S. military lab for more than a year. Tests on rats and sheep show injuries consistent with those seen in humans. Also, as a separate part of the investigation, security camera videos have been collected that show Americans being hit. [2:19:11] and Istanbul. [2:19:13] captured two FBI agents on vacation sitting at a table with their families. A man with a backpack walks in and suddenly everyone at the table grabs their head as if in pain. Our sources say that another video comes from a stairwell in the U.S. Embassy in Vienna. [2:19:28] The stairs lead to a secure facility. In the video, two people on the stairs suddenly collapse. [2:19:35] Those videos and the weapon were among the reasons the Biden administration summoned about half a dozen victims to the White House with about two months left in the president's term. And then that guy was also one of the people in there. The ads are kind of fucking up this. Mm hmm. [2:19:49] website, but... [2:19:50] Yeah, he just sort of said someone admitted to him that they treated him poorly. [2:19:54] Yeah. That's the biggest cover-up I've seen in my adult life. Let's see. Interesting. I – [2:20:00] I don't get the – like the border – if Russia has this weapon, why don't they use it to take out Zelensky? Well, it seems like it's only for a couple hundred feet. That's what they were just saying. Like it has to be close. Right. So what was the one they used in Venezuela then? They started off saying it was in a truck. It was truck size, but then that's where it goes.

[2:20:18] I started you just past that where they said it's actually way smaller. Interesting. So this is the one that you could carry around. But do we know that that's the same one they use in Venezuela or do they use something that's completely different technology? Yeah. The reality is we just don't know. [2:20:33] I mean the interesting thing as well with Venezuela is like [2:20:37] Maduro is so retarded. [2:20:39] There's a hot take. [2:20:45] How retarded is he? He's so retarded. This is a joke. Set up, punchline. But he literally said to Trump, he said to America, I'm not going to do what you say. Go fuck yourself. Come and get me. Yeah, he did that. That was cocaine. No, no, no, no. And it's not just that. So, for instance... [2:21:06] the country next to Venezuela is called Guyana [2:21:09] and in Guyana they recently discovered oil [2:21:13] really huge large deposits of oil and there's been guiana is a british former british colony and venezuela and guiana [2:21:22] have always been disputes about territory, about one particular part of... I think it's called Escaíbo, which is basically... [2:21:29] Rainforest. They always argue about it, but no one cared. [2:21:32] Until... [2:21:33] They discovered oil there, at which point Maduro went, you know what? You know how we've been talking about this? [2:21:40] Turns out, [2:21:41] It is Venezuelan. They did a referendum in Venezuela where you basically asked people who were entirely subjugated, starving, living in misery and poverty, whether they wanted to start a war with Guyana.

[2:21:55] Do you know how many Venezuelans voted for it? [2:21:58] 92% Joe. [2:22:00] 92% of Venezuelans wanted to go to war despite the fact they didn't have the strength to even pick up a gun because they're so malnourished. [2:22:07] And then he started teaching in schools... [2:22:10] redrawing the map of Venezuela so all the school kids [2:22:14] now think that Venezuela incorporates this territory. [2:22:18] Like, he was antagonizing. [2:22:20] the Americans and their allies consistently. And unlike Iran, he doesn't have the infrastructure. He doesn't have... [2:22:29] That amount of the military, the power, the organisation... [2:22:33] He made himself so vulnerable. So vulnerable. Who looks at Trump and goes, yeah, let's fuck with that guy? Right, he's 80. [2:22:41] He doesn't have much to lose. Right. Lost to him. That's the scary thing about old leaders. [2:22:47] It's like death is imminent. [2:22:49] It's within a decade if you're lucky. [2:22:53] That's spooky. [2:22:54] That's spooky. Like, you know, you're making decisions for babies and children and the future of the world. And you've only got 10, maybe 10 years left on on Earth. [2:23:05] If everything goes great. And also, you start to degrade. [2:23:08] Oh yeah. Your cognitive functions. It doesn't, I'm not saying that he's got dementia or anything like that, but you're just not as sharp. [2:23:14] When you're that age as you are when you're younger. He is... [2:23:17] I mean he's kind of weird like when I think about how much Barack Obama aged yeah how much Tony Blair aged yeah [2:23:24] Trump has not aged like that.

[2:23:27] Yeah, and he is a terrible diet. [2:23:29] I mean, especially when he's on the road. He just eats junk food because he says it's like JFK or RFK Jr. rather told me he's he eats junk food because he knows that when he eats fast food, that it's not going to be poison. [2:23:43] Like he knows he can eat it. [2:23:44] And not worry about getting food poisoning. [2:23:47] What? Exactly. Does that make any fucking sense? Well, it does because it's filled with preservatives, so you're not going to get food poisoning from a Big Mac. When was the last time you heard about anybody getting food poisoning from a Big Mac? [2:23:58] Right? [2:24:00] fucking never happens because nothing can grow on those things. Really. Like, for real. You've seen them. They take like a hamburger. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Decades. [2:24:11] They don't rot. There's so much preservatives in the bread and whatever the meat is. [2:24:14] fucking made with. [2:24:16] But this is my point. Trump hasn't aged like much younger men. Which is even crazier because you consider he doesn't exercise. Right. [2:24:24] And he's been under colossal – I mean, I don't know, but I imagine he's been under a bit of pressure and stress. Well, assassination attempts. Yeah. And just all that, almost going to jail. Yeah. Right? Like 34 felonies sort of trumped up. [2:24:38] Pardon the pun. Against him. He's a Russian agent and all this bullshit. And he's just like... [2:24:45] it's kind of like it's kind of impressive in a way oh that part's very impressive yeah yeah and he's funny like he's always joking around about that stuff yeah and he's very light-hearted about it all yeah he is like when he was talking about the iranian navy did you see that he was like they've lost 14 ships we sunk a submarine that did this but apart from that they're doing really well he's very relaxed for a man in that like it's it's hard to imagine i i cannot imagine being

[2:25:15] anything [2:25:16] a thousandth of that size. Right. Just imagine the stress that you guys have running trigonometry. Right. Yeah. Right. It's stressful, I'm sure. Francis has aged like Barack Obama. Yeah, I used to have black hair. [2:25:30] Now I just look like an aging lesbian, John. It is stressful, right? Yeah. And that is the highest stress that I can ever imagine. I can't imagine a level higher. Do you know, I always remember after the war in Iraq, [2:25:45] Blair was still in power, but it was towards the end. [2:25:49] I was watching the news with my dad. [2:25:51] And this woman... [2:25:53] "'Then her fifties came along.' [2:25:55] And she put a wreath... [2:25:57] At this. [2:25:58] at the door of [redacted address]. [2:26:01] And that was a mother whose son had died in Iraq. [2:26:06] and placed a wreath. [2:26:08] at [redacted address] of all the soldiers that died. [2:26:12] I'm not... [2:26:12] Even if the war was justified, even if it was the right thing to do, which I don't think it was. [2:26:18] I would still find it impossible to sleep. Right. Now, just imagine it was the colossal fuck-up that that war was. Right. And those people... [2:26:26] died as a result of your decision. [2:26:29] But how do you, unless you're a sociopath, I think that's an, you can't, can you live with that? Right. [2:26:37] I think it's impossible to live with. Clearly not. I mean, we've got people who are heavily responsible for promoting that war in the UK now.

[2:26:48] like Alistair Campbell [2:26:49] he was the spin doctor [2:26:51] that helped Blair lie the country into the war in Iraq. He now has a really big podcast and like all the young people are, oh really? Tell me more. No way. Yeah. [2:27:02] She's the Rush Limbaugh of the UK. [2:27:04] How do you mean? Sorry, I don't know enough about Rush Limbaugh. [2:27:21] the memes that think that Rush Limbaugh is actually Jim Morrison. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if you look at his facial features in comparison to Jim Morrison's facial features, they're almost identical. It's kind of nuts. They do like a scan where they like superimpose. So Rush Limbaugh is a media guy. Alistair Campbell, he was working for Tony Blair. Right. But now he has a podcast. Now he has a podcast. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And all the young people are like, oh, really? Well, there was a lot of young men in particular that were really into Rush Limbaugh. [2:27:51] crediting him with turning young people towards a right-wing direction. This was during the Obama administration. [2:27:59] Um... [2:28:00] Like, look at this. [2:28:02] Watch when they... [2:28:04] Go over. [2:28:05] Pretty close. It's like Alex Jones and Bill Hicks. Have you seen that? That one's ridiculous. I met both of them. They don't look anything like each other. Look at this. Look at that. That is kind of crazy. [2:28:16] Wow. [2:28:17] Right. [2:28:18] It's pretty close.

[2:28:20] Wow. [2:28:21] Well, you know, there's the other crazy conspiracy theory involving the countercultural movement of the 1960s with the CIA. [2:28:33] There's a book on Strange Times in Laurel Canyon. The book's nuts. You realize how many of these very popular countercultural figures had families that were in the military, like high-level military intelligence officers, including Morrison. Oh, yeah. Morrison's dad was a very senior in the military. And a bunch of other people that were also involved in the whole Laurel Canyon rock scene in that it was somehow or another at least promoted – [2:29:03] By intelligence agencies, if not formulated. And by counterculture, you mean like what? Like hippies? Yep. Yeah. So the hippie movement... [2:29:11] was promoted by [2:29:13] Intelligence. Yeah. Yeah. [2:29:14] Well, why? That's a good question. Well, we know... [2:29:18] Without saying definitively, but pretty close based on Tom O'Neill's book, Chaos, that they were absolutely involved in the Manson family. [2:29:27] So the reason for them being involved in the Manson family is, say, you have this new culture that's arising that doesn't embrace materialism, make love, not war. You've got all these people, you know, drop out, tune in. Timothy Leary. Yeah, the Timothy Leary people, the people that are – [2:29:47] want to do acid and just want to reimagine society. So this is a radical change. That's a radical change from the 1950s to the 1960s. Pretty crazy. Mm hmm.

[2:29:56] So what do you do to stop that? Well, what you do is you find a guy who's very charismatic, who is a sociopath, who's in prison, and you find that guy and teach him how to be a cult leader. And then you give him acid and you show him how to administer acid and how to not take it and have all of his followers take it and then direct their thoughts and then eventually program them. [2:30:17] like MK Ultra style to commit murders. So they have the Tate LaBianca murders. They have a bunch of other stuff that they did before that. He's gotten arrested multiple times. Every time he gets arrested, they let him go. And when they let him go, like one of the sheriff says, I was told it was above my pay grade. So you're letting a guy go who's a violent criminal, who's violating parole, who's a lifelong con man. And now he is running this cult and this cult is murderous. So the [2:30:44] Tate LaBianca murders, the Manson family murders, all that stuff becomes public. There's the hearings, the trials, the whole thing. So the entire public narrative changes on what a hippie is. Now hippies are dangerous. So before hippies were like, we're nonviolent, we want love, we have flowers. And now it's like, oh, these fucking people will cut your baby out and write pig on the wall with your blood. [2:31:06] Is the Altamont concert connected to that at all? Excuse me? The Altamont concert. What is that? You know the Rolling Stones concert? Oh, that was the Hell's Angels, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was kind of seen – I don't know. It's just a question I'm asking. Because that was seen as the end of the hippie movement, wasn't it? That was the death. That was the final – [2:31:26] death rattle the hippie was it that was how it was that's how it was written and portrayed well that's odd because the hell's angels are not hippies and having hell's angels as security is a wild move yeah that's crazy yeah because it was a rolling stones concert but in because it was a free concert wasn't it that was a thing how did they go about hiring see if you can find the history on that they go about hiring the the

[2:31:52] Hell's Angels? Yeah. Both previously used the Angels for security at performances without incident. Grateful Dead and Jefferson Airplane. [2:32:02] This is also – the next sentence says it was denied, so I don't know. Right. But that's what it says in the Wikipedia here. [2:32:09] Um, this is for $500 worth of beer. That's all they had to pay them. The story was denied by some parties who were directly involved. According to the road manager of the Rolling Stones, 1969 U.S. tour, Sam Cutler, the only agreement there ever was, the angels would make sure that nobody tampered with the generators. And that was the extent of it. But there was no way they're going to be the police force or anything like that. That's all bollocks. [2:32:39] the hell's angels san francisco chapter according to cutler the arrangement was that all the bands were supposed to share the 500 beer cost but the person who paid it was me and i never got it back to this day okay so uh the hell's angels guy uh says we don't police things we're not security force we go to concerts and enjoy ourselves and have fun [2:33:02] Well, what about helping people out, you know, giving directions and things? He says, sure, we can do that. [2:33:07] how they would be paid. He said, we like beer. [2:33:09] In the documentary, Gimme Shelter, Sonny Barger, the guy that was the head of the Hells Angels, stated that the Hells Angels were not interested in policing the event and that organizers had told them the Angels would not be required to do – or would be required, rather, to do little more than sit on the edge of the stage, drink beer, and make sure there weren't any murders or rapes occurring.

[2:33:30] Mmh. [2:33:32] The only reason I said that is because that was kind of one of the events that was... [2:33:38] heralded to be the end of the hippie movement. Right. So what happened? They stabbed people? Something happened? I think it was a free concert that the Rolling Stones and these bands put on, and then it degenerated, and then a riot broke out, and then the Hells Angels, who was obviously not trained security. [2:33:56] then went on the rampage. [2:33:58] Thank you. [2:33:59] And how many people died? That I don't know. [2:34:03] Does it say here, Jamie? Situation tier 8s. [2:34:06] killing... A woman got killed? [2:34:10] Yes. [2:34:11] us. [2:34:14] 22 caliber from [2:34:15] jacket, [2:34:16] Draw a revolver, drew a knife, stabbed him 16 times in the head, neck, and back. [2:34:21] Whoa. That's a lot of stabbing. [2:34:25] Thank you. [2:34:26] Um... [2:34:28] So it says concealing the remaining 14 stabbings? What? [2:34:34] *ahem* [2:34:36] He's high on meth when he dies. Oh, boy. [2:34:41] Quitted after jury reviewed the concert footage. Rolling Stones were aware of the skirmish, but not the stabbing. Couldn't see anything. It's just another scuffle. Jagger tells David Males-less during film editing. It soon became apparent they could see something of what happened because the band stopped playing mid-song, and Jagger was heard calling into his microphone. Really got someone hurt here. Is there a doctor? After a few minutes, the band began playing again and eventually completed their set.

[2:35:09] They had to get paid. Um... [2:35:11] They abandoned the show at one point. It was the same... [2:35:14] Altamont became, whether fairly or not, a symbol for the death of the Woodstock nation. [2:35:20] Mmm. [2:35:24] Interesting. [2:35:25] Yeah, I mean, it seems like [2:35:28] If you're going to have concerts, especially if you're going to have free concerts and you're going to be using Hell's Angels as a deterrent, things could definitely go sideways. Yeah, definitely. And maybe they just got lucky before when they did it for Jefferson Airplane and The Grateful Dead. [2:35:45] Yeah. [2:35:46] Joe not to change the subject but have you been following this beef between Eddie Hearn and Dana White [2:35:52] A little bit. Because it's kind of interesting to me because boxing seems to be changing, right, because of what Zufa Boxing is doing. Is that something you're excited about, the possibility of the boxing, which has been – there's so much bullshit going on. [2:36:06] and you so very rarely see the best fighters fighting each other, that that might change? Well, the beef with those two, I don't know the root of it. I think it's essentially that – [2:36:18] you know, it's competition. Like Dana is now entering into the MMA space, into the boxing space. Excuse me, the boxing space. Right. And I was going to say Eddie Hearn is now entering into the MMA space. Cause now he's a manager of Tom Aspinall. Yeah. Which is very interesting. Um, [2:36:33] Anything that gets fighters more money, I'm for. And more attention, more money, more different promoters, more people competing to give people higher purses. The real problem is with MMA, there's nothing. I mean there's essentially the UFC and everything else is a distant second.

[2:36:51] And it's a distant second in terms of attention. In some places, it's not a distant second in terms of revenue. So like the PFL, for instance, the PFL was offering a million dollars for anybody who could win these tournaments. And the caliber of fighters that were winning this tournament were not – [2:37:12] the same caliber as UFC champions. And then some of the people that were competing in the UFC were not making as much money as these people that had left the UFC because they really weren't [2:37:22] able to beat the best guys they went over there and they made a million dollars [2:37:26] I think that's good for fighters. It's not good for really talented guys that really want to be the UFC champion because you can languish over there for a long time. And there's some good examples of guys who spent four, five, six years over there that really had potential to be a world champion. And they are, you know, in quotes, the world champion over there. But ask the average person on the street who they are. No one knows. Ask them who Alex Pereira is. Everybody knows. The thing is. [2:37:56] Those guys, if they're doing that and they're getting paid more, you have to make a decision. Like, are you willing to take more money now? [2:38:05] in this organization versus the potential of much more fame sponsors and maybe less money initially in the UFC. But if you can be a champion, that's really what every fighter wants to be. [2:38:18] Because if you spend five, six years in an organization, the reality is –

[2:38:22] Your prime is about five, six years. [2:38:26] You look at the elite of the elite guys, Anderson Silva in his prime, it's about five, six years. Fedor Emelianenko in his prime, it's about five, six years. So you could burn out your prime in an organization where you're not getting as much talent, not getting as much recognition. So it depends on what you're doing it for. If you're purely a prize fighter and you want to fight for the highest bidder, the difference between MMA and the UFC is you can do that in boxing. So in boxing, people go to see the fighter. [2:38:56] Crawford is fighting Canelo Alvarez. My mom could be the promoter. Nobody gives a shit. They want to see that fight. [2:39:02] And you put that fight on pay-per-view, it's going to sell. You put it on DAZN, you put it on Netflix, it's going to sell. In MMA, that's not necessarily the case. The interesting challenge to that is this Netflix thing. So with Ronda Rousey versus Gina Carano. Yeah. [2:39:19] Even though Gina Carano hasn't fought since the 2000s, I don't remember what year was the last time she fought. [2:39:27] I want to make a guess. Let me guess. [2:39:29] I want to say 2007, 2008. [2:39:33] When was the last time Gina Carano fought? [2:39:35] And she's 43. And I think Ronda's 39. But Ronda's so famous. [2:39:41] And people are so interested. And if it's on Netflix and people already have Netflix, I guarantee you'll get millions of people that will watch that. So that will be good. [2:39:49] Right, and that's good for the fighters, and I know they offered some fighters that I know a very large purse to compete on that card. Well, Francis Ngannou might be one, right? He might be. Yeah, there's talk of that. No, actually, I think that's been...

[2:40:02] I think that's been confirmed. I think he's fighting Philip Linz. [2:40:06] 2009. Okay. So that was the last time she fought. Chris Cyborg was a beast. Yeah. There was a lot of supplements involved in that. There was a lot going on with her. I mean, that was the Wild West of testing, and she looked freak. Yeah, the eye test was kind of – Yeah, the eye test was 100%. Yeah. So – [2:40:26] But it will still be exciting. People will – and hopefully they've had enough time. I know there's a lot of video footage of Rhonda training for quite a while. She lost a lot of weight. She got really slim. She looks fit. She looks outstanding, especially with her grappling. She's doing a lot of judo throws and arm bars and shizzling or she's lost a step. [2:40:46] There's a difference between that and competition. There's ring rust. There's a lot of factors. Gina Carano was a legit Muay Thai champion. She's got real power, and she was a very good striker when she was young. She was a very technical, solid striker when she was young. [2:41:01] How long has it been since she – I mean how long did she stop training for, right? She did movies. She's done The Mandalorian. She's had a lot of success acting. But it seems like there's probably quite a bit of time. She lost a ton of weight too. [2:41:18] And she looks quite a bit bigger than Roger. Those are two attractive ladies, if I say so. Yep. [2:41:24] Oh, Jake Paul is in the middle. Yeah. Ronald looks very angry. He looks kind of awkward there, Jake, to be honest.

[2:41:33] You know, when it comes to grappling, you give Ronda a big advantage. She's one of the best submission artists ever, period. You know, her arm bar is about as good as it gets. She's got fantastic judo, bronze medalist in the Olympics. But when it comes to Gina, Gina was like a solid striker when she was young. And the difference in striking would definitely benefit Gina. You would have to lean in her direction. But again, when you're talking about like 2009, it's a long time, man. 17 years. It's a long time to not compete. [2:42:02] Well, there do seem to be a lot of fights nowadays and in various disciplines happening where it's like – [2:42:07] You're not seeing people at their prime. You're maybe sometimes seeing people who aren't professionals. Right. But are famous. And there seems to be a lot of money to be made doing that. Yeah, as long as you match them correctly, right? Yeah. [2:42:19] That was the thing that was wild with Jake Paul versus Anthony Joshua. Jake Paul is a cruiserweight, and you've got Joshua, who is heavy for the heavyweight division. You looked at the size matchup between the two, and at one point I was like, he's going to kill him. [2:42:36] Well, he did. I mean, I think Jake probably knew it going in and just I think his game plan was just to move a lot, you know, and he did a lot of that, did a lot of moving. He hit him a few times and he hit him with some wild shots from the outside where he kind of dove in and threw wild punches. I think that was probably part of the strategy.

[2:43:06] skilled man. Very highly, highly skilled. [2:43:09] That was a strange fight because up to that point, Jake's pole fight was the other way around. Like he clearly had an advantage. And that was like flipping the script the other way. Well, smart dude. You know, very smart. Do you think that was smart? Yeah. Very smart. And he promotes himself. Smart in that like you can't criticize him for not fighting dangerous fights anymore. You've got to respect. Right. Yeah. The Mike Tyson one was a little sus. I mean, Mike Tyson is, you know, he's on the older side. Whereas Anthony Joshua, he's not that old. It's not just that. [2:43:39] was a little sus. How do you mean? Because it looked like a sparring match. Right. It looked like there was an agreement in place. Okay. I don't know if there was, you know, but... [2:43:47] Terrence Crawford thought it was. [2:43:49] Really? Yeah. He looked a little sus. I mean, Mike is... How old is Mike? 58? 59? Yeah. He's older than me. I still wouldn't get in a ring with him. Yeah, no, I'd still kill you. But it's like, I mean... [2:44:00] It's not saying that Jake would have even won. I mean, who knows? I mean, if... [2:44:04] If Mike really could have, like you saw, he's capable of those flurries when he's hitting pads. He's still capable of massive speed and power. [2:44:14] It's not saying that – but it's like could he sustain a real fight? Does he want to get hit in the head anymore at this point in his life? And it's also when you get to that age, you can look and you can – there will be glimpses where you're like, oh, this is the Tyson of old. But it's also as well – [2:44:30] He's still a 58-year-old dude. You know, a punch around the head, that can cause a brain hemorrhage, etc. And he can die. Sure. Fighters die at the peak of their powers or get brain damage. Yeah.

[2:44:41] I'm no neurologist, but I'm certain that that is a higher risk when you're 58. Yeah, I would recommend it. [2:44:50] So this is why I asked you about Eddie Hearn and Dana. There's talk about them having a boxing match. Oh, that's funny. Dana can box. [2:44:56] He can really box. Like I've seen Dana hit mitts before. I've seen Dana spar. Dana can actually box. And there was a time where Dana was supposed to have a boxing match with Tito Ortiz. Right. Wow. And, you know, even Tito acknowledged because Dana was his manager at one point in time. Even Tito acknowledged like Dana's a really good boxer. He can box. He spent a lot of his time boxing when he was young. I mean, I don't know how much of it he's doing these days. He's so fucking busy. Yeah. You know, he's so involved in Zufa boxing now. [2:45:26] odd season events. So it's like, you know... [2:45:29] I think it's probably just talk. Eddie Hearn's a very tall guy, though. He's a big dude. Yeah, he's a big dude. And he used to box as well. Did he? He boxed his dad, I think. [2:45:38] I heard him talking about that. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. There's a fight. Yeah. I guess. I don't want to see it. I'll watch, though. Well, this is what I mean. You don't want to see it, but you'll watch. Yeah. Well, there's certain things I don't want to see that I watch, like slap fight. Like if someone sends me a video, if it shows up on my Instagram feed of some poor slob getting slapped in the shadow realm, I'll watch it. Just for how they hit their head off the table and stiffen up on the way down. Yeah.

[2:46:08] Yeah. When you think about it. It's not even combat sports. [2:46:11] I mean, it's just slapping each other. [2:46:13] That's all it is. If you want to call slapping each other a sport, that seems crazy. There's also a fundamental problem with slap fighting. Someone has to go first. [2:46:22] Yeah. Yeah. And that's a giant advantage. Right. Going first is the biggest advantage of all time. Right. You know? [2:46:28] How is that decided? Coin toss? I don't know. I don't watch it. [2:46:33] Is it? [2:46:34] I have no idea. No. I physically can't watch it, to be honest. Yeah. Well, I... [2:46:40] To me, it's like this, at least zoo for boxing, is real. This is a real combat sport, whereas it's not just slapping each other in the head. Well, to me, the exciting thing, and correct me if this is wrong, but the exciting thing is it has felt for a long time that seeing top boxers fighting each other is a rare occurrence. Right. UFC, you see that every single card. [2:46:58] Yeah. Well, the Saudis are stepping up and that's – with Turkey, I'll shake like his – [2:47:07] his role in boxing has really changed that. Like what, what they've done with Riyadh seasons done is make fights that managers have said, don't do this. Yeah. Like a, a good one is a Martin Bacoli versus, um, God, I forget his name. Anderson. [2:47:26] Yeah. [2:47:26] A young prospect, very good fighter, and Bacoli is a fucking big, dangerous guy. And Bacoli knocked this guy out. Jared Anderson? Jared Anderson, that's it. Jared Anderson was an undefeated, up-and-coming prospect, young guy, and Bacoli beat him up.

[2:47:43] and he really wasn't there yet. He wasn't ready for that guy yet. And Boccoli stopped him, and that derailed this guy's career. But he probably got a big paycheck. [2:47:55] Right. Right. And so what I understand is there was a lot of people saying that's a bad fight to make. Don't do it. Yeah. I mean, the UFC has been seems to me from the outside, quite careful about like giving people like Bo Nickel and Raul Rosas Jr. and Sean O'Malley, just trying to get them to build up slow. And even they've, you know, Raul and Bo Nickel both lost at one. Yeah. Right. [2:48:25] And Ryanair did a fantastic job of, you know, you don't want to take Ryanair to the ground because he's an elite. [2:48:30] submission athlete and standing up he's got vicious knees to the body that's like one of his best weapons and he he fucked bo up but that was a good fight for bo because he came back from that and fought hadolfo vieira and looked fantastic afterwards like he's a real competitor and a winner and the kind of guy that gets knocked down like that is going to get back up and be five times more ferocious and that's what he is but you know [2:48:54] It's one of those things where it's like – [2:48:56] Thank you. [2:48:57] Why do you protect some people and not protect others? You know, and is it because they have better management? Is it, you know, because sometimes the UFC will tell you, like, if you want to fight in the UFC, hey, we've got to fight. [2:49:08] We need an opponent in four days. Someone dropped out, and you're going to fight.

[2:49:14] blank and that person who you're going to fight might be a surging contender who's fucking terrifying he's putting everybody to sleep and you have to make a decision like this is not a good fight for me at this point in my career but if i say no to the ufc maybe they will never offer me a fight again and also you're a fighter and fighters from everything that i know would you get back yourself yes but you have to do that intelligently right you have to realize that if [2:49:44] championship level, up until a certain point in time when you plateau. Everyone is constantly getting better. [2:49:49] So if you get better from training, you get better from work with your coaches, but you also get better with experience. And what boxers and boxing management has always done is make sure that you get the proper experience and the proper kinds of opponents are going to test you in certain ways along the way. So the idea is you give a fighter a stiff test that they can pass. [2:50:11] You don't give a fighter a chance where they're going to compete against someone who's many, many levels above them, and they don't have a chance at all because that can destroy confidence. That could cause real damage to you. You can get really badly hurt and never be the same again. There are certain fights that fighters have where they are never the same again. They get knocked out by someone, and they just aren't the same. They get a flying knee to the face, and they're done. They get a head kick, and they're done, and they just are never the same guy again.

[2:50:41] but that a fighter was never the same again. It's a dangerous sport. It's – I mean – [2:50:47] It is the most in – I mean it's not the most in terms of death. Boxing is the most in terms of death and I think that's because they have less options. [2:50:55] You know, you can't clinch. You can't hold on, try to take a fight to the ground. You can't defend yourself as well. There's also the thing where you get knocked down and you get back up. Well, you clear your head momentarily, but you're still fucked. And now you can't get out of the way of punches. Now you're really getting fucked up and you're getting much more damage than you would have gotten if you got clipped that first time. And then the guy punched you a couple of times when you're on the ground. Or you got choked out. Yeah. Or you got choked out is way better. Yeah. Choked out is way better. Arm bar, way better. Just tap and then you're good. It's also the duration of the fights. [2:51:25] tend to last for a lot longer normally, if they go the duration. They certainly can if it's 12 minutes, right? You're dealing with 36 minutes of fighting, of getting punched in the head versus 25 for an MMA fight. [2:51:37] The opposite of that, you would say, though, but they're not getting slammed on their head. They're not getting kicked. They're not getting kneed in the face. They're not getting cut open with elbows. There's a lot of things that can happen in an MMA fight that are way worse. [2:51:50] But do you also think as well that when I watch MMA, losses, of course losses are detrimental and they affect careers and they knock people back, but they don't seem to be as consequential as losses in boxing. In terms of your career? In terms of your career and the way you're perceived.

[2:52:20] level, you're not seeing guys avoiding each other because there's one champion and it's a UFC champion in that weight class. And you have to fight that guy if you want the title. Whereas there's the WBC, the WBO, the IBF, and you have all these different organizations for boxing. And so you can be a champion while avoiding the other champions. Whereas in the UFC, that's the thing that's exciting is like you get to see Max Holloway, who is a super dominant guy. Right. And then he fights Charles Oliveira. Yeah. Yeah. [2:52:48] and it doesn't go that way it's crazy that was so dominant yeah it was so dominant and max holloway was a two-to-one favorite at least at some points in the the betting line yeah [2:52:59] I mean, obviously, Hamza Chemaev is a whole category of its own, but it sort of felt a little bit that level of domination on the ground. Yeah, the difference is Holloway was getting dominated on the feet, too. Oliveira's fucking dangerous as shit on the feet. I mean, he was better everywhere. And he's bigger. He's a bigger guy. And you could see that in the exchanges. Like every time he got a clinch on Max, he just hoisted him up in the air and slammed him to the ground. It was so definitive. [2:53:29] performance by Olivera. [2:53:31] The thing, my concern going into that fight was I'd watched the Mateus Gamrot fight with Oliveira. I'm like, Oliveira is as good, if not better, than he's ever been before. Gamrot is fucking dangerous, and he's a really good grappler. And they went to the ground, and he was lost. Oliveira was just tying him up in knots. He wasn't able to get anything off on Oliveira. I'm like, what is Max going to be able to do on the ground against this guy? And then when it comes to standing up.

[2:53:56] Justin Gaethje said no one ever hit him harder than Oliveira did. That Oliveira, it's like he carries big power in his punches and big power in his kicks too. And he's so reckless on the feet. Not reckless, I should say, but so aggressive on the feet because he wants you to take him to the ground. Because he's the best submission artist in the history of the sport. He has more submissions than anyone ever in the history of the sport. And the thing that you don't appreciate, I mean, you really kindly sorted out tickets for us in the UFC in New York. And you know these guys kick hard. [2:54:26] You know they punch hard, but when you're there ringside and you feel the kick, you're like, ooh. Oh, yeah, you guys are close. That's the thing is when you're close, you can hear the, ooh. Well, do you know what happened, though, in New York? We sat down, and then some guy that I didn't initially recognize came and sat in front of us. [2:54:42] And that was Dylan Dennis. And he kicked off his whole fight. The brawl. She sat literally right in front of us. Oh, you had a front row seat? Yeah, we did. So the actual fight. Oh, boy. Was that exciting? Yeah. Well, I just turned to the side, and then there was this just giant brawl right in front of us all of a sudden. Those are very unfortunate. Yeah. I don't like those. Yeah, no, me neither. It was crazy. It was crazy. Well, Dylan Dennis, he knows how to get a lot of attention. Yeah. And I will say this. [2:55:12] But unlike a lot of online trolls, that guy actually does it in real life. Do you know what I mean? Right. He actually, I'm like, I don't like you. Dylan can fight. He can fight. He's a very good submission artist. He's a Marcelo Garcia black belt. He's very legit on the ground. [2:55:26] Conor McGregor brought him in for training for a lot of his camps. Yeah. Are you excited for the White House card? That looks really good. Yes. Yes.

[2:55:35] Um, I'm excited. It sounds crazy. I know it's going to be very high security and high stress and weird to have a fight at the White House in the middle of a fucking war. I would hope the war will be sorted out by June, but... [2:55:49] Quite honestly, I'm not confident that that's going to be the case. No. Yeah. No. Yeah. So that would be weird. Yeah. Having this very high profile event where everybody's in one place at one time right there. I hadn't thought of that. Yeah. Yeah. So you're not excited to be there? Well, that seems like you're asking for. Holy shit. I hadn't thought of that at all. How could you not think of that? Well, because I'm not going to be there. You're the one who has to think of it. I was just like, this is a great lineup. I look forward to the fights. Yeah. Because if you want to talk about Hidden Heart, I mean, Ilya Teporia, fuck me. [2:56:19] and Charles Oliveira. Charles Oliveira dominates Max Holloway, and then you realize how quickly Ilya Duporia... [2:56:27] starched Charles Olivera and you go how good is that guy right he's a once in a generation talent like he's he knocked out in three fights three all-time greats insane Volkanovsky [2:56:41] And then he knocks out Max Holloway. And then he knocks out Charles Oliveira. [2:56:45] In two different weight classes, he knocks out three all-time greats, three fights in a row. And he's just definitive, starching of these guys. He's a once-in-a-generation talent. And think how dominant Volk is. How good he looked against Diego Lopez. How good Max Holloway looks all the time, especially in striking exchanges. Max is a very hard guy to hit, and Ilya just dominated him. He's fucking spooky good and insanely confident, insanely charismatic.

[2:57:15] Do you think part of it as well is just technique is so important? It's the most important thing because you look at Yusek when he came up against Fury. And the first fight, I didn't give Yusek a prayer. Yusek is basically a glorified cruiserweight. And you look at Tyson Fury, 6'8", undefeated. He comes from a traveler background. This is a guy who was taught to box from the age of three. I've taught traveler kids. They all taught how to fight. They know how to fight. They know how to throw punches. Boxing is in their blood. [2:57:45] And you just saw that he was so technically supreme that Fury had no answer and lost consecutive fights against him. Yeah, and then look at what he did to Dubois. [2:57:55] Yeah. Usyk is special. I mean, he's basically a gigantic Lomachenko, like unbelievable movement. And he was trained by Lomachenko's father as well. Same trainer. Yeah. [2:58:07] I mean, there's just people that are better than everybody else. And it seems like Ilya Teporia is one of those guys. He's just weirdly better than everybody else. And he can take it, too. Like, one of the fights that he had, so when he was competing at featherweight, he took a fight at lightweight against Jai Herbert. [2:58:23] And Jai Herbert in the first round caught him with a perfect head kick, rocked him, dropped him. And Ilya Tepuria wound up grabbing his legs, taking him down. They fought on the ground. And then the second round, Ilya just put him into the shadow realm. He hit him with a combination against the cage where he hit him with, I think it was a left hook to the body and a right overhand that just spun his head around. It was wild. I mean, face first, face planted. He's got freakish power. So it is technique.

[2:58:53] is flawless. His technique in the grappling is flawless. Oh, is he good at grappling as well? He's phenomenal at grappling. Really? That's his main base. He started off as a grappler. Really? Yeah. I didn't even know that. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. In his early fights, he was just taking people down. Because you don't see that much nowadays. He just fucking knocks everyone out, basically, right? He's just... [2:59:11] It's his mind. [2:59:13] more than anything. His confidence is real. It's not bluster. He celebrates the fights the day before the fight. He has a celebration of his victory. He did that against Charles Oliveira. They all went to dinner. They're making toasts, celebrating his victory the night before the fight itself. [2:59:32] That's a high risk strategy. It's a crazy thing. Meanwhile, it goes out and knocks him out in the first round. Like who fucking knocks out Charles Oliveira in the first round like that? Especially now, like the Charles Oliveira of today. That's crazy. He's... [2:59:43] It's many things, but the mind that allowed him to get so elite at grappling also allowed him to get so elite at striking. And it's setups and traps. It's not just throwing wild bombs. It's defense. His defense is fantastic. You saw that in the Josh Emmett fight. Josh Emmett. [3:00:04] Like as far as like one punch power, he rivals everybody. I mean, you saw that fight where he knocked Bryce Mitchell out with a punch to the forehead. That guy hits so fucking hard. And when you look at it, it makes sense. I mean, he's a fucking tank. Yeah. And Ilya Deporia just slipped away from everything, slipped away from everything, and then eventually just put it on him. Yeah. He's great everywhere, man. He's great on the ground. He's great standing up. And more importantly, it's his mind.

[3:00:31] Like, he doesn't make mistakes. He's just a force in there. [3:00:35] He's the new breed. Like with every generation, there's – every generation builds on the success of the previous generation. They all learn from the elites of the past. He's our version of what's possible now. Wow. [3:00:50] He's that good. I was hoping for the White House card Dana would do something and pull Jon Jones out of the bag. I was hoping that as well. Yeah, I was hoping that as well. That would have been really special. Yeah, I don't know why that didn't happen. I don't know. I mean there's Jon's version. There's the UFC's version. I don't know what was the stumbling block there. Well, I think it's fair to say him and Dana don't get on very well. [3:01:12] I don't think it's that bad. [3:01:14] They certainly could make a deal. I don't think it's as bad as, say, Francis Ngannou. The Francis Ngannou situation, Dana does not like him at all and won't do any business with him, period. Because that would be the fight, Francis Ngannou versus Jon Jones. Oh, my goodness. Oh, my word, that would be good. But also Alex Pereira versus Jon Jones would be the fight as well. A title doesn't mean anything. You could do the BMF heavyweight version. It doesn't matter. Just those two guys fighting. [3:01:44] when you're dealing with the all-time great in John Jones, the greatest of all time, and then Alex Pereira, a generational talent, who's the most devastating striker we've ever seen inside the sport. I mean, as you look at Ilya, I mean, Ilya's phenomenal, but Ilya's, like, more complete as a fighter. [3:02:01] Alex is freaky. Did I ever tell you what Mark Goddard said?

[3:02:05] When he fought Khalil Rountree. So he beats Khalil Rountree up and they stopped the fight. And then Mark Goddard grabs me like as I go into the octagon, he goes, the sound it makes when he hits them is ungodly. [3:02:20] That's what he said. He goes, he goes, mate, I've been doing this for 20 years. He goes, I've seen it all. He goes, it's different. The sound, the impact is like he's a freak, man. That guy, he's a physical freak. [3:02:35] an Amazon warrior who's just built different than other people. You know, I'm sure you've seen him punch that machine. Yeah. Where he gets like 190. Francis Ngannou got like 129. What? And he got 190. Yeah. Yeah. [3:02:50] Holy shit. Yeah, no, it's freak power. I did not enjoy watching the end of that Khalil Roundtree fight. I'm not going to lie. That was rough. And Khalil Roundtree is like a fucking animal. He's a warrior. He's just a warrior. I mean, he knew going into that fight, he was willing to go out on his shield. He wasn't afraid. And he went after him. He went after him. He did. But the consequences of getting hit. And then Alex was starting to tune him up at the end where he was leaning away from shots and then countering and leaning away from shots and countering. He was in his flow state. [3:03:20] And that's where it got real spooky because Khalil became like a sitting target. And with each shot, his ability to get out of the way diminished. With each kick that landed, his ability to move diminished. It got spooky. Yeah, and then it becomes a dilemma for the referee. Yeah. When do you actually step in? Right.

[3:03:37] Look, there is a consent for the fighter to be there and to take part in the fight, but there comes a point where you have to step in for the fighter's own health. Yeah, there comes a point where you realize they can't defend themselves anymore and they're getting just tuned up. And that was the end of the fight. I mean, that was the right time to stop it, but it was hard to watch. It was, but then you get fights like Usman versus Leon Edwards, where he's getting smashed for five rounds and he just fucking pulls a kick out of him in the last minute and knocks him out. Yeah, but he wasn't getting smashed. [3:04:07] Khalil Roundtree was a damn. That's fair. Yeah, that's fair. He was getting beat. He was getting beat, yeah. Yeah, but he wasn't in danger of getting stopped or really hurt badly. Yeah, that's fair. But that's why we all watch it, because it's that knowledge that anything can happen. Yeah. You know, Hakeem Rahman versus Lennox Lewis. Right, right. No one gave Hakeem a prayer when he went in. Lennox is a supreme fighter, Olympic gold medalist. [3:04:32] One of the greatest to ever do it. [3:04:34] And then that one punch he hit flush on Lennox's jaw and he was out. I remember watching it going, I mean, no one saw that. Especially in the heavyweight division. One punch with those guys. Yeah. It's why I really like it because in our world, like, you know, if I do a debate, everyone talks shit to each other. [3:04:49] You know, everyone talks shit, then they go have a debate, everyone still talks shit afterwards. [3:04:52] In combat sports, everyone talks shit and then you find out. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's very definitive. You win or you lose. It's not subject to other people's interpretations. Because, like, you'll see that in debates, too. Like, I'll see a debate where I think, like, for you, for example, well, you clearly won the debate. And then I'll see people say you got owned. Right. You know, and I'm like, okay. All the people who agree with me say I dominated. And all the people who agree with the other guy say he dominated. Yeah. And you'll see these pundits.

[3:05:22] There's a weird economy of commentators on other people's exchanges. And that is a weird sport. You've made loads of careers. There's loads of people. Joe Rogan said this on his podcast. That's the entire content. They work for me. They don't even know it. They do. They make me more famous. [3:05:40] You're getting all the kickbacks. Also, you get to see what kind of a person they are. They're silly, bitchy people. You go like, well, the silly, bitchy people don't like them. Or maybe someone who you agree with doesn't like me. [3:05:52] I don't like him anymore, which is fine. But it's like that economy of commenting on other people constantly. The problem with that is you've always put yourself in a position of an outsider. You're a – like me. When it comes to combat sports, I'm a commentator. That's all I do. I can't fight. I'm 58. I'm not going in there. So it's like I'm always going to be in this position of only being an observer and a commentator. I'm not going to be – like for those people that are commentating, [3:06:22] on these debates, a lot of them probably fancy themselves intellectual gladiators. They just don't get the opportunity to do it. And occasionally they do, and they usually get trounced. Right. Because really they're not that good, which is why they're commenting in the first place and why they have these fucking stupid hot takes. Well, you know, the frustrating thing for me with the debates nowadays is how few people want to have an actual discussion. Right. It was so refreshing. Last time we came here, we had Dave Smith on our show. I don't know if you saw that one. Yeah, I did. Yeah.

[3:06:53] We loved it. It was great. We loved it. [3:06:55] And Dave enjoyed it. And, you know, it was weird because... [3:06:59] We obviously have lots of different perspectives on things, but afterwards a lot of people were like, oh, I can't believe you had Dave on. And I said to all of them, listen, Dave's only crime is that he has a different opinion to you. Because apart from that, he comes in, he shows up, he's super nice, he's respectful, he's polite, he doesn't do any dirty tricks. He doesn't argue about the definitions of words that – [3:07:21] 10 minutes [3:07:22] Right. He just goes, here's my opinion. Here's your opinion. Let's discuss. Yeah. And that's how conversations should happen. Right. But so much of the debate stuff now is not people aren't discussing the issues. They've just like decided you're a bad person. And that's what they're trying to achieve. They're trying to get a cheap laugh from the audience that they're playing to who's not even in the room. [3:07:42] Because they know their retard followers are going to watch it online afterwards and be like, oh, he owned them. But where did we get to? Well, it's just – I mean it's just some people that are doing that. And those people, that's all they can do. That's why they do it that way. Right. You know, if they were really intellectually compelling and if they were like smart people, like I don't want enemies. If I can have a sane, rational, peaceful discussion with someone where we disagree with something, I would greatly prefer that. [3:08:12] them we're trying to like get off on each other like why yeah yeah i'm busy yeah yeah i have things to do like i don't need that kind of bullshit in my life and i don't mind when someone disagrees with me i think it's healthy i know i also want to know why you think the way you think genuinely right

[3:08:27] You know what I see as an opportunity as like, because we all have blind spots. Yeah. We all have blind spots. We all have biases. I don't care who you are, how smart you are. You have biases, you have blind spots. [3:08:39] Not me, mate. I know everything. But when someone goes, well, actually, Francis, you say this, but what about this? [3:08:46] Have you thought about this? Have you read about this? I'm like, no. It's like, well, maybe you should. And maybe you actually, maybe won't change your opinion, but certainly have a more nuanced opinion. [3:08:57] We're talking about shit that actually matters. Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. [3:09:01] And it deserves to be taken seriously. Yeah. Well, the answer is don't engage with those certain people. Yeah. I'm learning that. Yeah, we were having a conversation about one particular individual where I'm like, why? Don't bother. I can't believe you. I didn't say anything about that discussion because I was just like, I don't want anyone to waste their fucking time watching it. It was awful. I'm fascinated by that too, though, because I'm fascinated by these people that are doing that where they're just trying to win and use tricks and be sneaky. [3:09:31] Right. [3:09:44] why this person believes it to be incorrect, and I want to find out if maybe we have common ground, and maybe they know something I don't, or maybe I know something they don't, and let's find out. [3:09:54] You know what I really want? And Constance and I have talked about it a lot. I want somebody on the left to come out and be brilliant at debating and go to people on the right. Well, you say this and you say this, but actually, let's look at this. Let's look at that and be a genuine intellectual force. And what I despair of is I haven't seen anyone be from the left like that in basically a generation. I think the generation that you're talking about has been captured by some certain narratives that you have to agree to that aren't rational.

[3:10:24] you [3:10:25] align yourself with this particular ideology you're already saying i'm willing to believe some shit that doesn't make any sense at all because this is the only way to be accepted by my tribe that intellectually compromises you and that that also i think humiliates you in a certain way it puts you in a position where you're saying something that you know can't be true so you set up blind spots do you think they know it's not true i think there's got to be a part of them that realizes there's a good argument that it's not true you know especially when it comes to like [3:10:55] stuff or border stuff. There's certain things where like there's no real good faith argument that you should have an open border and allow fucking any psychopath to come across the border and then invade your community. That seems crazy. [3:11:08] That seems crazy. Like if you understand anything about human nature and the nature of the world and the level of poverty and crime that exists outside of the United States, particularly in third world countries, we're just allowing people. I thought you were talking about Canada there, Joe. I'm all for them evading. They should come over. They should bail on their country until it gets better. [3:11:38] defend something I didn't [3:11:40] belief. Well, that's because you're smart. And I think the problem is a lot of these people aren't really intelligent. What they are is a person who has a good vocabulary, who's acquired a certain amount of technique and skill involved in talking really fast and spouting things that they've seen online, a bunch of narratives. Like one of the things that people love to do is if you're talking

[3:12:10] time convicted felon and you know there's a lot of a lot of things that they like to say there's techniques involved instead of like discussing anybody that looked at the actual trump case if you're rational and you're on the left you say that's a crazy case there's no way that should be a felony it's not a felony there are 34 different misdemeanors and it's also it's past the statute of limitations this is a craziest egregious misuse of justice and the scary thing is if someone on the right gets in they decide to do that to someone on the left like you got to put [3:12:40] from happening the russia russia russia stuff right like the all that stuff the russia gate stuff like that's kind of crazy that someone on the left doesn't call that out and say hey guys this is fucking dangerous because if you're lying and you're having intelligence agencies lie and you're having people lie on television and you're just accepting that what because it's your side you're supporting your side that's why that's crazy yeah that's why and and i find that very [3:13:10] we're having. We're talking about, you know, is it right to do these strikes on Iran? Or is it this? Or is it that? Is, you know, what's the situation in the Middle East or whatever? How does bringing up... [3:13:21] Trump's convictions or otherwise change that. It doesn't affect that conversation. Or the border. Or the trans thing. Or any of the other things. And that's the thing is like, can we just argue the fucking point? [3:13:32] Well, I think at a certain point in time, you're going to have to choose real opponents. It's like a Jake Paul thing. But see, I want the real opponents. But where are they? Where are they? And we've had people on the show where it's like we had this woman from the Guilty Feminist podcast. And she came on and we gave it 40 minutes. She basically laid out her whole vision.

[3:13:53] And [3:13:54] It was respectful and polite, and it was a great conversation, actually. [3:13:57] The moment I said, well, you've been speaking for this time. Here's some of the things that I see that don't make sense in my head. Can you help me out? Immediately goes personal. Immediately. Yeah. And that's what Francis is saying. Like I'd love to see people who have an ability to argue the point. [3:14:15] Yeah. Yeah. [3:14:16] And that's what Dave does. He argues the point, and that's either persuasive to you or it isn't. But I think the problem is their point is not very good. Yeah. I think that is the problem. So you have to go personal. You have to attack people. You have to use ad hominems. It's the only way you can get anything off. And then you can try to get that person emotional and trap them. So why don't they change their opinion then? It's a good question because if you're ideologically captured, especially if you're on the left, like it's a very clear ideology and there's like – [3:14:45] real blowback for deviating from it. [3:14:48] Yeah. As we know, right? Because the moment you say, well, you're no longer on the left. Right. Yeah. Well, a lot of people have been kicked out of it. Yeah. A lot of people have been pushed into some weird quasi. [3:15:00] Yeah, homeless land. Well, that's how we all ended up was like right wing. It was like fuck off with the shit. Yeah, fuck off with the shit. Yeah Yeah, when I took 20 years ago all the stuff that we talk about and [3:15:10] It wasn't just like not right wing. No one... [3:15:14] questioned. [3:15:16] Do you remember 25 years ago people running around going, we need an open border? [3:15:21] Right. Right? Or like you can change your sex by just going labracadabra. Right. No one said that. Right. And so we went right wing for like going, that's crazy.

[3:15:30] I know. You know, the most bizarre thing is watching all these kind of left-wing lesbian feminists be described as right-wing and getting kicked out. The J.K. Rowling is a master. Martina Navatrolova. Fuck my life. There's a journalist called Julie Bindle, used to write The Guardian, one of the most left-wing journalists. [3:15:48] And she's lesbian. And she criticized, like, and she was like the trans movement. That was it. Out the door. It doesn't matter what you've done before. It doesn't matter you've done all this incredible work with women in female prisons. Well, it's because it's a cult. [3:16:02] I mean it's essentially like a religious ideology. Like they will not take any heretics. Like anybody that deviates from whatever their doctrine is, like you're out. You're out forever. Yeah. [3:16:14] And that scares people. So that's one of the reasons why they're willing to comply and follow some of this goofy shit and say no one's illegal on stolen land. What's interesting is it doesn't happen on the right nearly the same way. Like you can see it now. The right is engaged in a fierce debate. [3:16:31] Internally. Mm-hmm. [3:16:33] And people fucking argue and they hash it out and then they go have a beer afterwards. I think they're doing it just the same way. Just the same? I think it's a human thing. Yeah. I think there's people on the right that do it just the same way. There's people that call people out for not being MAGA enough. Yeah. It's just like right now the whole thing is in turmoil whereas there's not really the same kind of turmoil on the left where there's internal debate. The turmoil on the left is the left versus the right. Yeah.

[3:17:03] people right versus right and they're trying to find out like and i think there's a lot of people that they don't believe what they're saying either they're just trying to find a thing that aligns with the biggest audience i think that's definitely happening i also think though [3:17:16] Internal debate within a big, broad church movement is a good thing because what you're arguing about is like what is the right direction? Yep. You know? Yeah. And I do think that is more healthy. [3:17:27] I think working out what it is that – like whatever – if you're on the right, we believe. [3:17:34] I'm not on the right, but as I see that, I do think that's a healthy thing to do because you're arguing about the direction of that movement. And I think that's much healthier than what happens on the left where it's just like, well, if you don't agree with this wacky idea that's far, far out there – [3:17:48] then you're no longer part of this. But I think the good thing about these debates is it exposes that. [3:17:53] And anybody who's objective, especially anybody that is – [3:17:58] you know, a swing voter or anybody who's in the middle of all this, which is a lot of people, a lot of people. Most people, I think, right? Yeah, most people are kind of in the middle on most political issues. They get to see how crazy some of this shit is, and it makes them less likely to follow.

[3:18:16] a neutral perspective [3:18:18] And I mentioned the point about I want a strong left. I want a strong left which has got good ideas about how to tackle things which are really important, like inequality, like the cost of living. How do we make it that... [3:18:30] people can actually have a better standard of life, where if a woman wants to stay at home with her kids, she can do that, which they then have to go out and have to work and put the kids in daycare, which then leads to a whole host of problems. How can we have a better world for ordinary people, which is what the left always used to be? We need a strong left to then challenge the right so that the center becomes a more fertile ground. And if we don't have that, if we have these crazy loons on the left, [3:19:00] have is a right which will come to dominate, which I don't think is good for society as a whole. I'm going to be honest with you. No, it's never good if one... [3:19:10] party, left or right, is completely dominant. It's not good. [3:19:14] You need checks, right? And the right has its share of crazies, too, as we've been talking. A hundred percent. Praise Jesus. We've got to wrap this up. Gentlemen, I love you guys. Very quickly. Oh, your book? Yeah, I've got a book. It's out on. It's called Uneducated My Life as a Teacher and Why You Should Never Become One and Never is in Bold. An inspiring story. Francis Foster. All right. I love you guys. It's always great to see you. Thanks very much, man. Bye, everybody.

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