#2440 - Matt Damon & Ben Affleck

[00:00] The Joe Rogan experience. Train by day Joe Rogan podcast by night all day. I went in and I went in and I [00:18] And [00:20] I'm sitting in the waiting room and it was like on a Sunday because it was I was like, I'm only in town for instance. And Stan was like, I'll come into the office. I'm like, thank you so much. I had to have some filling or whatever I needed. So kind of an emergency. [00:31] So I'm sitting in the thing [00:32] And... [00:34] And I'm not getting called in, but the ladies just... No, no, there's not even a receptionist. And Stan comes out with his mask going, "No, the first thing I hear is, 'Pig fucker, fucking mess of cocksucker, fucking pig fucker!'" And I'm like, "What is happening in there? It's in the other room." And Stan comes in with his mask and he goes, [00:51] Sorry. He goes, I'll be with you soon. He goes, I got Hunter in the chair. And he goes back. And I hear, listen to Hunter Thompson swear for like 15 minutes. I'm like, this is amazing. [01:00] And then Stan goes, okay, come on back. And Hunter's kind of getting out. [01:03] And he goes, oh, you're sitting down with this guy? [01:06] He's a fucking assassin. [01:09] And then he goes, and he's got this jug. [01:11] of clear fluid. [01:15] And he's like, you're going to need a sip of this. And I'm like, oh, my God, this is fucking Hunter S. Thompson's moonshot. I'm like, this is fucking amazing. I'm talking to this dude for 30 seconds and I'm getting a sip. And it was like 10 in the morning on a Sunday. Yeah. He was halfway through the jug. Pure fucking like. Where was this? In Beverly Hills. Yeah.

[01:40] Brentwood. Yeah. Brentwood. Oh, my God. That's amazing. It really was. I mean, it was. [01:45] So I had probably a total of seven minutes. [01:48] you know with him and it was like I I it could I could not have been a better seven minutes that's incredible [01:54] I went to the Woody Creek Tavern just to go there because I know he used to go there. Yeah. And, like, you could, like, feel him in the building. You know, there's all the pictures in the walls. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This cool little place. Yeah, I mean, those books, fucking Hell's Angels and, you know, Fear and Loathing. It's some of the best writing. I just fucking, like, he really had his own voice. Rum Diary. He was spectacular, you know. It was, like, really descriptive and punchy and fucking interesting and fucked up. And he also just lived that life. It was like completely. Fear and Loathing changed my life. Like, reading that book was like, what the fuck? [02:24] Like, what is this guy doing? There's grown men out there, balding, grown men with spectacles running around with them. They fucking think there's lizards in the fucking lounge. Like, the guys are listening. He's got a day trip bag filled with acid. Like, what the fuck are you doing, man? And it's great shit. It's like you fucking feel like you're on the adventure with him, you know? Yeah. [02:47] No, it's interesting to watch the evolution of his writing, too. You know, like I read Hell's Angels, and it's like very different. He was kind of restrained. He was quite like – for that, I think it was edgy sort of for the time. Yeah. Like, oh, you're going to get beaten, chain-whipped and stomped by the angels. And that was really edgy. And by the time they got into what it was, Fair Loan, in 72 or something like that, he was just out there. Yeah, he was gone. He found his voice.

[03:17] illustrated. That's a fear and loathing when I read a book. I fucking lost my mind. Great. It's great, Hunter. We'll take it. Well, hey, it's very nice to meet you guys. I met you before, but very nice to meet you. Thank you very much. I love the fucking movie. The rip is great. It's really good. It's so original and it's so it's so different. And it's you know, it's like I love those kind of movies, but it's not like any one that I've ever seen before. Really solid movie. Thanks. Thank you. [03:47] some. [03:47] So much better than you hating it in a seven-year-old. The interviews were like, so I saw the movie. Anyway, how have you guys been? We've had a lot of those press junkets where they come in and the first thing that you know the movie sucks, if they don't ask you anything about the movie, they come in and go, so how have you been? You're like, oh shit, this is going to be bad. [04:04] Is it weird, like, the transformation of the film industry seems like a lot of it is moving towards these big streaming movies now. Absolutely. I mean, look, it's because where most people have gone to watch them. Yeah. Like, it used to be the only place you'd go see movies in the 40s. Like, every American went to the movie every week, basically. But it was because it was that or watched the cows walk by, you know. That was the only. And then TV comes around. It's little. And you see these little serials. [04:32] But, you know, what happened was now this is why it's totally changed the whole thing because you have 300 million people, 330, whatever it is, watching, you know, Netflix. And it's a lot harder to get people to go into the movies. There's also YouTube. There's also TikTok. There's also my kids. Like, it's hard to get them excited about a movie. Yeah. That's what we had. I mean, yeah, that was our. I mean, our teen years were just every weekend. We're at the movies. Yeah. There's just no question about it. You were going to go and usually not get into one because there were too many people.

[05:02] playing and go to that. Well, it seems like it was kind of slipping away because so many people were watching streaming already, and then COVID came around, and everyone was locked down, and no one was going to the movie theater, and then it just set in. I had this, like, drama that was coming out, like, right when COVID... [05:17] hit. [05:17] I liked the movie, performance movie. It's an alcoholic guy who's a kid. A guy whose kid dies and becomes an alcoholic. It's a dark movie. But I loved it. And I could tell, like, we're fucked. No one's going to go to the theater, see this movie. And it wasn't even that streaming really blew up, you know, of course, during COVID. So, you know, look, they rushed it onto streaming. People actually saw it. I was like, all things being equal, I'd like people to see it, you know. And it's not like my dad had an 11-inch black-and-white TV. And that's what was TV viewing. No, it's like $200. [05:47] sound. So of course people are willing to. And then streamers also started making great shows. You have Adolescence. I think that's one of the best things ever done. I haven't seen Adolescence. It's unbelievable. What is it? Oh my God. I don't want to spoil too much of it. It's only four episodes. [06:04] They're all one shot. Each episode is one entire shot. So the cast, they took, I think, I talked to the director about it. The cast took, I think, a week to rehearse each one and then a week to shoot it. And so they do it twice a day. It's the full hour they would choreograph the entire thing. It's a feat of itself. And then the acting is great. But that's, I mean, just dismiss that. You could even call it a gimmick. It's not in this case. But [06:31] The performances and the writing and what it's about, it's as good as anything you'll see. It's phenomenal. What is it on?

[06:39] Netflix. [06:41] Yeah, but it's not it's not even an anomaly us baby rangers those fucking successioners games are owns Ozarks, you know [06:48] It's just like, okay, well, they're doing great shit out there. It's not like the sort of implied thing before was like, yeah, well, TV's not as good. Not as interesting. When we started, there was a different, like George Clooney, for instance, like there was a big thing, you know, he very famously, you know, became this superstar on ER. [07:07] That show, 40 million people a week were watching that show. It was the biggest thing, right? Because there were only a few channels to tune into, and that show was the biggest one. And George never renegotiated his contract. He wanted to work in movies, and it was like, you can't go from TV to movies. Very few people can do it. [07:26] strategically and kind of patiently like he joked that on the last episode he was on Anthony Edwards you know his co-star was making a million bucks for the episode and he was making you know 20 grand or whatever his deal was like he could have renegotiated but he would have had to give more years how bad he wanted to get off TV right yeah that's how bad he wanted to get off the biggest TV show in the world. [07:47] because there was such a big kind of level change between features and TV. [07:53] This summer, the Cup is taking over the U.S., and only DraftKings has you covered every step of the way. Follow every group stage upset, every knockout round thriller, every stoppage time moment that flips the whole tournament. Sweat all the big matches you love in real time with a seamless experience built for the world's biggest stage. No matter where you're watching, you're always connected and in the game with one app.

[08:23] to get 200 in rewards within 21 days. That's CodeRogan in partnership with DraftKings. The crown is yours. [08:48] This episode is brought to you by Traeger Grills. If you enjoy food, and I mean really good food, Traeger is a game changer. This isn't just a grill. It's the ultimate way to cook outdoors, delivering unbeatable wood-fired flavor thanks to the all-natural hardwood pellets that fuel everything you grill, smoke, or bake. That's it. Just wood and fire and flavor. And what's truly wild is how easy it is. [09:18] handle the rest. Grilled steaks, smoked ribs, even baked pizza, all on one grill. If you're into fire, flavor, and doing things right, check out Traeger Grills. [09:30] Let's talk about Service Titan, the AI for the trades. The trades are the backbone of this country. And for the first time, they've got technology that actually matches the work. Over 10,000 contractors already use Service Titan software to run their businesses. Built by two guys whose dads were in the trades, this isn't some tech company guessing at solutions.

[10:00] generic internet data. This is AI designed specifically for contracting work, HVAC, plumbing, electrical, and more. It's booking calls while you sleep, dispatching your texts, helping you run your back office, growing your revenue. One platform, fully automated, always learning, always improving. Every other industry is still trying to figure out AI. The trades are about to lead from the front. Service Titan, the AI for the trades. Learn more, [10:30] It's servicetitan.ai. Well, it was a giant difference in quality. It was also the breaking it up for commercials. Right. It was just a different experience. It couldn't be – there's all these rules. You can't say this. You can't do that. You can't swear. Not all that. [10:44] kind of violence and nudity, all the things people want to see in movies, you know, and then [10:47] And also it wasn't as interesting. And then now that's a tether to these schedules and all this stuff. Whereas you get this shit like you don't have a schedule and you can take a bunch of risks. And that started happening. And then it was kind of like, well, this is just as good, if not better, than what's in the movies. Well, then movies started to move towards more IP. Because it was hard to get people to come to the movies. Everyone got scared and thought, well, it has to be a sequel or a superhero movie. [11:17] you know there were a lot of really good independent movies that were being made there was there was you know it was a really great time to be making move people were they were making daring movies and and and then everyone just got way more conservative because it's huge like the business is so different theatrically and streaming because to put out a movie theatrically you have to put so much more money behind it to publicize like you're trying to get everybody spending about what the budget was

[11:47] Yeah, because you split it with the movie house, right? So a $25 million movie to break even, you've got to make $100 million in it. [11:53] And you've got to get everybody to not only know about the movie, but to show up like that Friday night. [11:59] Like that specific time, you know, for that specific movie. And so did you end to cut through all the noise that people are contending with? And it just becomes about risk and nobody wants to take the risk. So they don't want to make something new because it's such an investment. We're going to lose our fucking money. And the streamers have stepped into that and like, you know, you have to have a star. You could try something more interesting or didn't have to be a superhero movie, whatever it was. [12:22] And also, I think it's like, you know, frankly, like people my age, like... [12:27] First of all, it's expensive. You take your old family, it's $100. You're on a streaming service, $20 a month. You can watch all you want. So you can't be cavalier about, like, you're just going to price it however the fuck you want and expect everyone to, like, be indifferent to that. And then, you know, also... [12:41] You know, the idea of like for me, you know, there's a lot of stuff. I make that decision. Like, do I want to see the Odyssey on a big screen? Fucking death. I went to the theater to just watch the trailer for that movie. And, you know, did I at one battle after another, I wanted to go see in the theater. But there's movies of people that I really like and respect where, yeah, and I got a good system and shit. But I'm like, look, I'll watch and I might get tired or I won't pause it and take a piss or the kids, you know, whatever it is. [13:05] That's conducive to my lifestyle, you know, and so and most people I think most people are. Yeah, but there is the experience of seeing it with a bunch of other people. I mean, it's awesome movie with a bunch of other people. It's like a shared experience. A hundred percent. I always like an attention way more. It's like like when I went to see one battle on IMAX, like, you know, that feeling. There's nothing like that feeling. I took, you know, two of my kids and two of my nephews and my wife and we all went and it was just it was like and you're in with.

[13:33] You know, a bunch of strangers, the people in your community, and you're having this experience together. I always say it's more like going to church. Like you show up at an appointed time. You know what I mean? It doesn't wait for you. It's, you know, versus the experience of watching at home, I think. [13:49] You know, you're watching in a room, the lights are on, other shit's going on, the kids are running around, the dogs are running around, whatever it is. You know what I mean? It's just a very different level of attention. [13:58] that you're willing to or that you're able to give to it. And that has a big effect. And it also ends up having an effect or is starting to have an effect on – [14:06] how you make movies like for instance netflix um you know [14:11] The standard way to make an action movie that we learned was, you know, you usually have like three set pieces, one in the first act, one in the second, one in the third. And, you know, they kind of ramp up in the big one with all the explosions. And you spend most of your money on that one in the third act. That's your kind of finale. [14:26] And now they're like, can we get a big one in the first five minutes to get somebody? We want people to stay tuned in. And it wouldn't be terrible if you reiterated the plot three or four times in the dialogue because people... [14:41] people are on their phones while they're watching. You know what I mean? Oh, no. And so then it's going to really start to infringe on... [14:48] Creatively. Yeah, how we're telling the story. Yeah, but then you look at our lessons, it didn't do any of that. It didn't do any of that. It was fucking great. You know what I mean? So I think it's dark, too. It's tragic and intense. It's like... [14:58] A guy who finds out these kids accused of murder and it's like, you know, and there's long shots in the back of their head. They get in the car. Nobody says anything. I think there are those...

[15:09] I wish that were... It feels more like the exception. It's so... [15:14] masterfully made that it feels a little more like the except I hope it's not my feeling is just that it demonstrates that you don't need to do any of that shit. [15:21] To get people, you know what I mean? Like, and I think, you know, yes. [15:24] You know, like, look, the town had the action thing in the beginning of the first five minutes. You know what I mean? Like, it's a common trick that you would go, like, let me grab him and get him invested. And it's like the movies that start with the hero hanging from the cliff. And now we're going to flash back to the beginning and tell you how they got there. [15:40] Um, [15:41] It's, you know, I always feel like, you know, complaining about it makes me feel like one of these guys was like, when I was a boy, like, you always want to freeze the culture at the time when you, I don't know, felt more like, you know, we used to have these phones. The fuck are all these phones? And everybody's looking at their phones. I get it. Yes, it's true. Also, it's like supply and demand. People want to look at their phone. They can look at TikTok. They want, you know, they're going to do that. I think what you can do is make shit the best you can. Make it really good. And... [16:07] You know, people can still go to the movies. It's not like... I think we have this idea that's like an existential threat. Everything that comes along is going to destroy everything. Instead of like... [16:16] What history suggests is that there's like marginal encroachments. Things shift. Yep. As television came along, there was less theater going. That's still going to happen. And people are still going to go to the movies because of what you said. Like, it feels like a cool thing to do. I'm going to go see The Odyssey, I guarantee you, in a theater, you know, no matter what. Fewer of them, you could argue that's because I have more choice or whatever it is. It's hard to fight supply and demand. That's the trick, right? If people want to watch a bunch of stuff at home because they invested in TVs and cost us money, they will. So, okay.

[16:46] I'm not. [16:46] But the upside of that is, [16:48] Like I can try to do something hopefully that's like – that actually doesn't need to have the most urgency to get you to come to the theater with your family. That's a little more experimental or risk-taking or whatever in that way. Well, you've got to adapt. I mean there's no way you're going to change people's viewing habits now. I mean what percentage of Netflix is actually watched on phones? It's got to be pretty high, which is insane. [17:11] Even watching on a laptop, for me, it kind of sucks. Yeah, it sucks. That's a joke that I like to make with every director I work with. When they're really puzzling over a shot or really grinding out something, I go, it's not going to look as good on the phone. [17:27] Everyone gets angry when you say that. They're waving out of their fucking sails. No, that's going to look great this fucking big. But keep fucking around and lighting that. It is weird, though, the concern for the algorithm, making sure that people watch. [17:41] shows within the first five minutes when this happens, they tune out. So it's like my buddy Tony Hinchcliffe, he's got Kill Tony and now it's on Netflix. And so they're giving him notes now and they can give him like, but they're not telling him what to do, but they're saying like, this is when people are tuning out. [17:55] And so let's, you know, just so you have that data, now decide how you want to edit things. It's like, oh. [18:01] Yeah, it is because the... [18:06] It's like the bar for... [18:10] walking out of a movie theater is a lot higher than from just changing the channel. Right. Right. And oftentimes, you know, you directors will want to make a movie that is challenging and upsetting. And I remember Terry Kenny, my friend, great actor. And he he told me about the experience of seeing Taxi Driver in New York. And

[18:29] for the first time right in 76 or whenever came out and he said [18:33] What I remember is not only the movie, but I remember standing at the back because I had got up. I got up out of my seat and I went, but I couldn't bring myself to leave because I was so invested. But I was because I was standing at the back by the door watching the movie. And he goes, and there were two other people standing next to me who were doing the same thing. Just because they were disturbed? Because the movie was disturbing them so much. Wow. Which is not a bad thing, right? Right. So had that been on Netflix or Amazon, you know, if somebody says, oh, I'm disturbed and they turn and they change the channel. Yeah. [19:03] That doesn't mean you shouldn't make Taxi Driver. Right. That's true. The investment of going to a place is much greater. Yeah. One of the values of that is that you could look at movies from the 70s. The first act was 25, 30 minutes. Right. The verdict for this is a great movie. It takes a long time to get going. Look at the deer hunter. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I mean it's – And you're right. Like what you're saying, the threshold for walkout is real like any scene like, I want to watch Naked and Alone. Whatever. You flip the fucking – so you are battling that. [19:33] the other night. [19:34] Steve McQueen. And there's no one talks for like five minutes. There's no talking. It's just a bunch of stuff getting done. Just a bunch of people doing things. And it's like, wow, you could make it different. You could let it air out back then. Yeah, it was. They had a different respect for what it was like. You were telling a story and you're going to let it air out.

[20:04] room full of people, it was a movie of a train pulling into the station. So they put the reel up and they did a demonstration and they showed the people and everybody missed it because they were turned around staring at the projector. They never fucking seen anything like that. You know, it's like the technology is upstaging, but like you come for an event, come for a thing. We're all going to be here. That's part of it. [20:25] So it's – I don't know. There's competing arguments. You can think, well, what do you get to do? And some people just go ahead and fuck it. Like Jim Cameron's Avatar. I'm going to make my three-hour movie and people are going to come and great. You know what I mean? And people say, oh, well, you can't have a three-hour movie. [20:39] And he's like, well, I'm Jim Cameron, and I've actually got the number one and two in movies. I think I got this. He goes ahead and does it. You know, this history is full of people who got told a bunch of conventional wisdom and were like, yeah, but we're going to do something different. And as it turns out, like that's actually what people want, too, is not for you to just repeat the other shit that's been done before and worked before. This episode is brought to you by Visible. Have you heard of Visible? [21:09] a month taxes and fees included all on Verizon's 5G network. It's the ultimate wireless hack to save money and still get great coverage and a reliable connection. [21:21] Got a resolution to save? Kick 2026 off right now for a limited time. New members can get the Visible plan for just $19 a month for the first 26 months. Ring in the new year with code SWITCH26. Share the savings with a deal that's too good to keep quiet. Switch now at Visible.com. Terms apply. Limited time offer subject to change. See Visible.com for plan features and network management details.

[21:51] One of the things I read that I thought was really fucking cool is you guys set it up so that if this film performs well, the entire crew gets bonuses. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. [22:02] Yeah, hopefully it's successful. [22:31] And what we saw was like, that makes your movie better. And then there's just the thing of like, the business is changing. You see these strikes and work stops and all these fucking questions. In order for this, I think, to survive and to be, you know, a good middle class fucking artist, you know, artisanal craftsman job. We've got 1,200 people that, you know, need to have reliable jobs. And part of the negotiations is always like, yeah, yeah, yeah, but we're all going to get fucked. Like, we have no participation. [23:01] and it happens to actors too, where you go, oh, we all invested. It was really hard and we fucking put in the extra effort. Somebody else walked away [23:08] with all the success. And, you know, my theory was with Matt was we were like, how about where, let's say, okay, it's just fairness, right? If this thing actually blows up and does really well, you should benefit from that. People have been, you know, kind of given sort of promises of participation back and haven't come true. This is like, everyone got their rates, everyone got their hourly, no one cut anything. This is just an exercise in actually proving that it's not

[23:38] A little more? A little more. But also, like you said, because it's fair. It's fair. And in success, the people who made the movie should... [23:46] you know, should participate in that. And also with this one, which was important to us, you know, they delineate above the line and below the line, right? Like above the line being like us, the director, and the producers. [23:58] And below the line being kind of the more blue-collar side of our industry. Like painters, groundsman, camera, everybody else, the drivers. And so we just wanted, we believe, like when we started this company, we were like, look, you know, we know who makes our movie better. [24:14] Right. It's not it's it's like they've this has kind of been mispriced the whole time. Like the economics have been wrong. Like when there's a when there's a big success, everybody who had a hand on it. Because you see a great director that people rely on or an actor that's considered bankable. They're all going, OK, I need all my people. Yeah. Every great director I've worked with and I've worked with a lot of them, they have their regular experience. [24:34] crew members that ride or die with these people. Because, I mean, and you said it to me when we were starting the company, you were like, you know, those department heads, you know, who are each handling like, you know, cinematography, you know, your camera department, you know, your grip department, your electric, like all these, this. [24:50] Those people are ultimately the people who make the movie good. Like they make a demonstrable difference in how good your movie is. And imagine once you get a good flow with a great crew. Exactly. Like you got the band. Yeah. Like there's no need to bring in new band members. Let's do this again. Yeah. And then like you have the situation where they all are filmmakers too. Everybody knows what we're trying to do. So like then what makes it – you're trying to get something special, something interesting, something fucking magical in some moment.

[25:20] They're bent out of shape or, you know, fucks up the environment. People aren't relaxed. Actors can't do their best work. And that does make a difference between something that's good, average, great, whatever. And I think that if you say like, you know, it makes cognitive sense to people. But if you look around like Colin Anderson. [25:37] camera operator, right? He's not the cinematographer, but I would tell you, I think he's the greatest camera operator there's in Hollywood. And if you want evidence that he shot Marty Supreme, he was a camera operator in one battle after another, you know, he's, you look at his resume and you're like, oh, that's interesting. These are all fucking great movies. Now, is he personally responsible for all of it? No, because it's a collaborative medium. There is no, like, you can be a painter and paint by yourself. You can be a novelist and do that, sing, write music. You can't do this job alone. Like there are a lot of people that go into it. [26:07] Even when I realized that Matt was the lead in the last movie I did air that I directed, [26:12] Having somebody so fucking good in your movie who also... [26:17] Shows up, does his job, is friendly, isn't fucking around or playing games or being weird. Like that sets this tone. Everybody else kind of goes, okay, what's Damon like? Oh, we're taking it seriously, but nobody's going to be a dick. We're all going to do our job. We're not going to take ourselves too seriously, but we're going to take the job really seriously. And immediately, everybody kind of snaps into that. That trickle-down effect goes across the whole thing.

[26:47] People feel like they show up, people like me, they're rooting for me, I can fucking embarrass myself and be bad, and it's not going to be in the movie, and it's always going to make me feel self-conscious. I'm listened to, my idea is listened to. Yeah, and if I have something to offer, they're going to go, oh, that's a good idea. You know what I mean? [27:02] That's kind of the trick, in my view. And then you're depending on the gifts of all these people, every single one of them. You know, guys who's – you know, some woman's assistant – [27:11] Prop master is coming up with like the stuff that, you know, Phil Knight found, you know, his waffle from the shoe. They found it on eBay. Like that's an extra mile. You know what I mean? Yeah. If you make people feel like it matters and you give a shit and that they're contributing and oh, cool, let's do a close up of that. That's really fucking cool. [27:28] they'll die for you. They'll go all the way, and it changes the whole dynamic. And if – [27:32] You bonus them. Yeah, it doesn't hurt either. You know, it's not just all, you know, it's – It's not just rah-rah. There's an actual, like, codified bonus structure to say, like, we – This is the way of recognizing that shit, right? Yeah. It's, like, in your paycheck, too. It's not just bullshit. That's very real. And you guys developed this? Is this – so this is something that you – like, kudos to you guys for addressing this, first of all, and recognizing it and having that attitude because it's so important and so easy for big movie stars to just think about themselves and their own career. Well, we're communists, Joe. We're from Cambridge. [28:02] keep the car running no but each deal has had this kind of [28:11] Each deal that we've done so far has been different because we've made deals with different companies.

[28:15] studios and platforms and stuff like that and just involved us basically retroactively going hey we came in under we did a great job as extra money here you go this is the first time that we're able to to actually create like a schedule where it's like because and by the way we wouldn't have been able to do that without netflix going okay cool you think you can make this work is this we'll give you a shot otherwise we wouldn't be able to do it so we had to say look we're not asking you to take a cut but you know if if we we can and we can tell you if the movie is watched [28:45] as like this movie A, that you all know what it is, then that's, you know, 20% of your salary, let's say, right? You should take a hit. So it's like, yeah, you make more money, your bonus is more. It's all just pegged to where you're at, just because that was the most fair idea we'd come up with. So they gave us like five different levels, right? Like the first couple we, hopefully we can hit, and maybe the third maybe we get, and then it got to like the fifth level. It's kind of like single, double, triple, home run. Home run, fucking Grand Slam. [29:15] So it's everybody who has a Netflix account watches it and then like 10% of them watch it again. And we were like – It's like K-pop demon. But that's what happened. We were laughing and then K-pop demon hunters came along and actually did that. That's the first movie that's ever – Jesus. Yeah. Well, I think a lot of autistic kids watch that over and over and over and over again. I haven't seen it. I mean somebody is watching it over and over again. Oh, yeah. Dude, people love it. [29:38] And I mean, it's, you know, the value of it is that because before this, one of the big things and everybody's fighting over in the strike is like, well, share your shit. There used to be residuals, right? And residuals, and it was only for SAG and a few other things. But it was like, and you knew if you had a line in the movie and there was a certain number, like at the box office, well, you're going to get another 2,000 bucks. And that was a big deal. You get that check in the mail and like, okay, I can pay the rent for another month and I can do that shit. But then there was this like sort of ill, what constitutes success?

[30:08] sell another ticket if you watch that movie, right? It's hard to tell, well, why did you sign up for this service, right? So for a while, everyone's looking at... [30:16] The first thing that you looked at when you subscribed to somebody, okay, you're going to go buy Hulu? What did you watch first? The bear. Well, the bear must be... [30:24] creating value for us. But you can't assign a strict numerical value to it because it's like a box office where you can go, well... [30:32] You know, Oppenheimer is a billion dollars or whatever, and that's another billion dollars on our balance sheet because streamers are doing a subscription model, you know? [30:41] That's, you know, whether it's like a gym membership or in the fucking, you know, first of the year, you're like, I'm going to work out again. I'm going to buy that annual membership. And you go twice or you go to the gym every single day. You're paying the same amount. Also, the weird thing is with streaming, when you're opening up Netflix, it's not like you go to the movie theater and there's seven movies playing. [30:58] You're opening up Netflix and you have an unlimited option list. It's insane how much content. You could waste the rest of your life sitting in front of Netflix and then die and have millions of hours more to listen to or watch. You're right. When we started researching that and built our own data to pull people and examine all this stuff – [31:20] It's actually all the library stuff that people are watching all the time. If you said like the new stuff is theoretically what keeps people with the subscription or whatever. But in terms of like volume of time, I think it doesn't come from them. But it looks a lot like, you know, we're going to watch like Orange is the New Black and the episode of Suits and the old Seinfeld and Friends and, you know, Cupcake Wars. You know, that's because Americans watch six hours of TV a day.

[31:47] Right. That's crazy. And then the other six hours are on their phone. [31:52] When you started to make this film, like what, what is the process? Like, how did you guys agree on it? Like what did you guys have it written first? Was Joe before you knew you were going to Netflix with it? Yeah. Yeah. He came to us with the script and we've known Joe for a really, he did a movie. His first movie was called Nark. I don't know if you ever saw it. [32:17] something like that. And so we met him back then. And Ben did a movie of his in 2004, I think. And so we've known Joe for a really long time and kind of been in touch with him over the years. And he just sent this to us. And we read it and we thought it was great and bought it for the company. And then we started talking to Joe about, you know, how he saw it, you know, how he wanted to do it. And he suggested that we actually do the movie. And we were like, yeah, why don't we do it? It seems... [32:45] Basically because we like it. We like it. We're not trying to just do our movies. We want to be – [32:51] you know, doing movies with all the people that we like and respect. And then, you know, the way we sort of set it up is such that to try to get like, historically, the way it's worked is like, you know, a studio will own an IP or a script or whatever. And then you cut and they'll say, okay, we want you to do it. Okay, well, how much? Well, how much did you get for the last one? Right? And you go, then what's the budget? [33:12] And then that's how they assign a value to it, right? [33:15] But, like, my belief was, well, especially when these streams are coming into the market and chasing stuff, is, like, this movie may be worth more. It may be worth less. And that, like, we're all just subject to that. So we'll try to get the best price for it, and we'll all share it, you know, pro rata. And essentially that was the same process. We've done eight, I guess, movies or so now. And we took it out, and, you know, people wanted it.

[33:45] It was like, okay, great. That's really meaningful because ideally it becomes a template that other people go, hey, we want to do that thing. And I mean go, here's the paperwork. Yeah, that's the thing. Like a lot of people say that they – [33:56] would want to do it, but now the template exists. So it's like plug and play. So if you're not full of shit and you really do mean that, then guess what? Just take this and do it. And it also is going to let you, you know, I hope, like manage the risk. In other words, the argument you always have is like, well, shit, we've got to invest all this money in the movie. So you can't have your protagonist be too objectionable, that's too edgy, or can't be R-rated because it costs this money. I get it, right? You're going to put all your money into it. You don't want money to fucking disappear. [34:26] Okay. So like when we wrote the first movie that we're doing Good Will Hunting, it was like, we knew that had to be a cheap movie. People talking in rooms to each other because no one's going to put a bunch of money into a movie with us. [34:56] system where we understand that, like, in success, we'll actually benefit – [35:00] We can lower the price upfront for you so that you can have a low fucking barrier to entry so that you can take the risk so that we can do something really interesting that's an original idea, that's an Abraham or a Sinners or a Marty Supreme or whatever it is. [35:15] And then if it's successful, we're not still sitting here like assholes where, you know, you guys walk off with all the money. And you can have that happen in an ongoing way so that you can make more insurance. This episode is brought to you by The Farmer's Dog. Here's a fun fact. Research shows that dogs who maintain a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer on average than dogs who are overweight. Isn't that wild and also kind of obvious at the same time?

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[37:34] podcast listeners. [37:36] things off. [37:36] A lot of the stuff that was going on with strikes was centered around AI and what AI is going to do to the business. Like where do you feel is going to be like the biggest problem with AI? Is it going to be with people's likenesses? Because there's a lot of that where they want to use extras and own their digital rights forever, essentially be able to recreate them in any kind of film. But then there's also – you're going to have films that are written by artificial intelligence. [38:06] involve people and it gets weird, right? It gets really weird, but there's actually an area of expertise for him. Yeah, we've been spending time looking at this. Like my belief is sort of like what's going to happen with electricity? [38:19] Well, a lot of shit's going to happen with electricity. Some of it's going to be good. Some of it's going to change stuff. Some of it's going to be like, you know, this is going to be, you know, shit that kills a bunch of people. Like it's opening a door that you can't, you know, say, well, talk about in a kind of a blanket way. But I think with what I see is, for example, if you try to get ChatGPT or Claude or Gemini to write you something, it's really shitty. And it's shitty because by its nature, it goes to the mean, to the average. [38:49] It's not reliable. And it's, I mean, I just can't stand to see what it writes. Now, it's a useful tool if you're a writer and you're going, ah, what's the thing? I'm trying to set something up or somebody sends someone a letter, but it's delayed two days and gets, and they can give you some examples of that. [39:03] I actually don't think it's very likely that it's going to be able to write anything meaningful or in particular that it's going to be making movies like from whole cloth like Tilly Norwood. Like that's bullshit. I don't think that's going to happen. I think it's not. I think it actually turns out the technology is not progressing in exactly the same way they sort of presented it. And really what it is is going to be a tool just like sort of visual effects. And, yeah, it needs to have language around it. You need to protect your name and likeness. You can do that. You can watermark it.

[39:33] I can't sell your fucking picture for money. I can't. You can sue me, period. I might have the ability to draw you, to make you in a very realistic way, but that's already against the law. And the unions are going to – the guilds are going to manage this where it's like – [39:49] Okay, look, if this is a tool that actually helps us, for example, we don't have to go to the North Pole, right? We can shoot the scene here in our parkas and, you know, whatever it is, but then make it appear very realistically as if we're in the North Pole. It doesn't save us a lot of money, a lot of time. We're going to focus on the performances and not be freezing our ass off out there and running back inside. That's useful, just like Spencer Tracy and Katharine Hepburn used to be, like, driving their car and there's a wind blowing a painting behind them. It looked goofy. [40:19] There was a lot of computer-generated stuff. [40:21] And some of it is going to replace just that. Like instead of 500 guys in Singapore, you know, making $2 an hour to render all the graphics for – [40:30] a superhero movie, there's going to be able to do that a lot easier. There's already laws around and guild guidelines around, like, how many union extras you have to use. [40:38] But also, we've been tiling extras. Like, there weren't a million... [40:42] orcs and Middle Earth, you know what I mean? They're an Invictus. There weren't all those people in the stadium. That's something we've been doing. It kind of feels to me like the thing we were talking about earlier, where there's a lot more fear because we have the sense of this existential dread. It's going to wipe everything out. But that actually runs counter, in my view, to what history seems to show, which is A, adoption is slow. It's incremental. I think a lot of that rhetoric comes from people who are trying to justify valuations

[41:12] They go, we're going to change everything. In two years, there's going to be no more work. Well, the reason they're saying that is because they need to ascribe a valuation for investment that can warrant the capex spend they're going to make on these data centers with the argument that like, oh, you know, as soon as we do the next model, it's going to scale up. It can be three times as good. [41:29] except that actually ChatGPT5, about 25% better than ChatGPT4, and costs about four times as much in the way of electricity and data. So those may say that it's like plateauing. [41:42] The early AI, the line went up very steeply, and it's now sort of leveling off. I think it's because, and yes, it'll get better, but it's going to be really expensive to get better. And a lot of people are like, fuck this. We watch HGP4 because it turned out like the vast majority of people who use AI are using it to like as like companion bots to chat with at night. And so there's no work. There's no productivity. There's no value to it. [42:07] I would argue there's also not a lot of social value to getting people to, like, focus on an AI friend who's, you know, telling you that you're great and listening to everything you say and being sycophantic. [42:19] But that's sort of a side issue. I think for this particular purpose, like the way I see the technology and what it's good at and what it's not, it's going to be good at filling in all the places that are expensive and burdensome and then it gets harder to do it. And it's always going to rely fundamentally on the human artistic aspects of it. Well, I think the more it becomes ubiquitous, the more people are going to appreciate real things that are made by real people. You know, like you still appreciate a handmade table.

[42:49] Did you see The Beast and Me, Claire Danes? Yeah. No, I didn't. Fucking great. Yeah, I heard it was great. That lady. Woo. Yeah, it was terrific. Woo. When she's in a scene, you're just like, Jesus Christ. Great, great actress. Like her fucking lips are quivering. Like you believe everything that she's saying. But you're right. People want that. You can't fake that. You can't. Right. I'll say like I did this interview with Dwayne Johnson because when people are in these awards things, they sometimes have other actors interview them. [43:19] I did this interview with Dwayne, and I asked him, there's this scene in The Smashing Machine where, [43:24] where where he's overdosed on drugs and his buddy comes to see him in the hospital yeah and and it really walloped me this scene I thought it was so great and and I asked him and I was just like can you just tell me about this scene like did Benny Benny Safdie directed it did Benny right there's to write that did you work on that scene with them do you because no we we actually worked on it together and I go well how did that scene come to be and Dwayne goes I'm [43:47] Well, my father was an alcoholic, and I don't remember if he said substance abuser or alcoholic, but I didn't know the man. I don't want to impugn him, but he had a substance issue, whatever it was. He goes, and when he would talk to me… [43:59] you know, that's how he... [44:02] would defend himself. It was almost a bargaining thing. Because there's this thing when this guy comes to him, he's overdosed and Dwayne's amazing in this scene. He's going like, he's going like, yeah, isn't it crazy? And then I woke up and I mean, I could hear him, but I couldn't really hear him. And you see him, he's kind of tap dancing. And his friend finally kind of holds his feet to the fire.

[44:19] And at that moment, Dwayne, [44:22] Literally. [44:23] starts to burst into tears and just pulls the hospital sheet up over his [44:28] Fithead. [44:29] And it's like, and it's, I mean, it just, it was, I'm not doing it justice if you haven't. I mean, I know you've seen it. I know you've seen it. It's amazing. But... [44:38] um... [44:39] He said, yeah. So he explains that about his father. And then he goes, [44:43] And when my mom was diagnosed with stage three lung cancer, I was with her when the oncologist came in and she was lying in the hospital bed. [44:50] And when he gave her the news, she pulled the sheet up over her head. [44:55] And I looked at her and she just looked like a little like a little kid, you know, and I was like, all right. [45:02] Like, so that, right, is two traumatic events from this guy's life, right, from his life experience. [45:10] and the actor in him, right? [45:13] Seize this scene. [45:15] Goes into his... [45:17] Memory. [45:18] pulls these two things out, understands that they're appropriate for this scene, and he can marry them together. [45:23] in the scene. And then he goes and performs it that way. And, [45:27] A dude walking in off the road goes to the movies. [45:31] Ceaseless. [45:33] understand somehow that it's fucking real. I didn't know why. That's why I wanted to ask him, how did that scene come to be? I genuinely didn't know. [45:42] And [45:44] made me... [45:45] tear up and you know like that is there's no fucking ai that can do that no it's the whole lot more than photorealistic images yeah yeah that you you could you could you could have an ai understand dwayne's face and move his face into different no fucking thing could ever do that complications of real life experiences relayed that is a completely human that is that is an artist that's a piece of art yes that comes out of a lived human experience that movie gave me so

[46:15] Blunt has argued with him. She's so good. I really said, I think that's the best she's ever been. We live in the same building in New York. She's a very dear friend of mine. And I... [46:26] I was like, I really think that's the best she's ever been. And then I said, and then I blurted that out to Chris Nolan. And he kind of stopped and looked at me like, he didn't say it, but he was kind of like, she's pretty fucking good in my movie too. Well, she's great, period. She's great, period. She's great, period. But there's something about that. Well, I knew Mark. I knew Mark from, I met Mark in 97 when he was fighting in the UFC. So I knew the whole journey of him. [46:56] superhero blockbuster Hulk of a man. He gets to be that, but be a great actor. [47:04] You know, you can't really get a person [47:07] to look like that to express emotions and express and and he was mark kerr i know if you know mark i mean it was great i completely forgot it was him and somebody who had seen it before told me that was going to happen [47:23] And I was like, all right, we'll see. And it was like from the second it started. It didn't get the credit it deserved in terms of the amount of people that went to see it. But I think overall in time, people appreciate it. Yeah, that's one of those people who go back to it and talk about it. Because it's a movie about MMA. So a lot of people are like, I don't want to see a movie about a bunch of fucking meatheads. But it's not. It's not at all. It's just a movie that happens to be around MMA. But it's a great movie. The scenes are fucking fantastic. They're fucking fantastic.

[47:53] So good. Absolutely. And even the fight scenes, they're so realistic, man. It's really like they – I saw all those fights. They've recreated those fights about as good as you can get. Yeah. And just his crazy struggle. And you know the story behind the documentary, The Smashing Machine? No. So The Smashing Machine was made when Mark was at the height of his powers and pride, and he was the most terrifying guy in the world. Yeah. [48:23] look like a human being everyone was terrified of him no one knew he was a drug addict no one knew and he spiraled out as they were filming and he let them film him let them film him shooting up let them film him like bringing this giant bag of pills with him and all this shit everywhere and just completely falling apart while they were supposed to be capturing this hero movie of the greatest fighter in the world he's falling apart like live in front of the documentary and [48:52] It was a fucking amazing documentary. [48:54] I got to see it. It's really good. But I was so happy that they put it in a film. And I was so happy that it gave Dwayne a vehicle to show what he's really capable of. Because he's so limited by a lot of just the parameters of the roles that he was in. [49:09] Yeah, and by like galactic success, too, right? I mean, he had to... [49:17] and will continue to have to push... [49:21] for that, right? Because it's what he wants. And not because what they're going to continue to want him to do is, you know, the thing that mints them money. Yeah, but I suspect that his experience and feeling about this movie. From the conversations I've had with him, yeah, this is...

[49:40] This has changed him. Well, I mean it's this thing that these superhero guys have to do where it's like something has to change because otherwise you're going to be boxed. And with a guy that looks like that, it's so easy to put him in that box. And so you see him now. He's thinner. He's lost a lot of weight. Dave Bautista went through a very similar thing too, right? He wanted to have more range, wanted to have more opportunities to do exciting and different challenging things. [50:10] came from, right? It's like you talk about going from TV to movies in the old days. Try coming from wrestling to like the biggest movie star in the world, right? It's very, it's like, it's incredible that he, you know, he's a great guy. [50:22] did that and now he's in this place where he's got this leverage as because he's so beloved and you know that that he can kind of tailor the tailor what he wants from from here on out it's hard to bring the audience with you right no no i know you like this thing but let me let me show you something else you know it's sort of like you go to the concert the band wants to play the new songs you know he's always a little gilded gaze all right fucking satisfaction yeah [50:52] to the left. [50:53] You know my acoustic thing that I did? Yeah, I went to see the Stones when they were here in town, and there was a few songs they played that were, like, new songs. Oh, really? You see the audience is like, okay, okay. Go get a beer. Okay, get the other one. Yeah, that's – well, I mean, but, you know, every artist, I guess, has to make that choice, and he's made it. And it was an amazing vehicle, too, because he still kept that superhuman, hulkish frame. Yeah. And then – but also showed, like, God, there's, like, amazing depth there.

[51:23] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's the thing that's, I think, especially because it's collaborative, it happens to other people. That's what movies do that other shit doesn't do, which is just create like you feel for people. It's empathy. It's all made up, right? That's not him. It's all an illusion. It's all bullshit. But if you do it really well, like, you know, somebody that seems to really be feeling something like all of a sudden, I think what it does, it touches like these things in ourselves. [51:53] but like [51:54] these moments that were kind of burned into his memory, then really the best movies are kind of almost blank screens that we project our own fucking, like, oh, yeah, my father died, or I went through this with my kid, or I'm fucking, I feel fucking alone and miserable, and here's this, like, hopeful moment that someone has to go, maybe I can... [52:16] Maybe I can do something. You know, they inspire you. They touch you. They move you. And it's the thing to go for. The other thing is, you know, it's a is to tell a lighter story, to go through the more typical sort of tropes of it all. And it's either way, you're in somebody else's perspective for a few. Yeah. And hopefully it breeds compassion. Well, when it's done right, there's a magic to it where you forget that it's happening and you're there. And the most amazing trick is when it's done by famous people. You know, I was talking to Ethan Hawke about this. [52:46] in that movie with Julia Roberts about the end of the world. I forget the name of it. Tomorrow. Tomorrow something. People will find it. It's a great fucking movie. But there's this scene where he's talking to Kevin Bacon. Kevin Bacon's got a gun to him. And it's so fucking – I know that's Kevin Bacon. I know that's Ethan Hawke. It doesn't matter. You're fucking locked in. You're locked in. You're like, oh, shit. That's the magic.

[53:16] in two like that's it's like a hypnosis it's like everybody is in the scene in a very bizarre way like you you have the lines but you're living it and so and that's either done or it's not done and when it's not done you could tell someone's kind of just performative you feel it when you're watching yes if it does that thing and it pulls you in then it's happening that's the magic of film and sometimes you trick people i guess but for the most part the most part you don't [53:46] it's really happening. Yeah. It's much more like other human beings. Recognize human beings experiencing real shit. Yes. They, they, they really mirror neurons. Like I know what sorrow looks like without having the fucking, I can't break it down for you. Or I even, you know, you, we all know kind of what, like, Oh, he's a little anxious right now. Or did I maybe offend him? Or is he, you know, all these little things. And when some, like in the rare moments, when these big feelings or smoke, the things happen, you, [54:15] You feel it, too, you know, and you usually like an example is this old saying about like, you know, actors try to cry. People try not to cry. Like because when you're really experiencing that shit, you don't want people to see it. You want to hide it. You want to know I'm OK. I'm fine. You know, it's like I want to pull the sheet up. Yeah. But the other thing that's really interesting from from our side of doing it, because he and I have talked about this a lot. [54:37] is and i've always said publicly like great actors are good enough for both of you like when you're in a scene with a great actor that thing that ethan's talking about that hypnosis or whatever you want to call it that energy that that place where you go right they're bringing you right with it it's like a fucking tractor beam they will suck you right in with them and like as quickly as you look into their eyes and you're like you're like just there and it's like and it's not like it's like

[55:03] riding the easiest wave you've ever ridden in your life. You know, it can be the hardest thing in the world and it can be the easiest thing in the world. When you're with a great actor, it just, it's just, if the scenes... [55:14] Yeah, this is a real paradox. Like all this stuff that I'm the most proud of, the weird thing about this has felt very easy at the time. And the shit where you're banging your head against a wall trying to get blood from a stone and killing yourself and all the thing. And it just ends up fucking feeling empty. And the thing about the stuff that I'm proud of is my insecurity is like it should be harder than this, right? Are we working hard enough? Are we getting – and learn to kind of just trust that. It feels good. Let's just keep going. [55:44] real and that's even harder to recreate because you guys are good friends and you're making the movie together and you've got this scene where you're acting in this and with the conflict with the two of you guys the movie but it's very fucking real the reason that it was real is that i like that scene the reason it's it it works i think is because [56:03] He's coming at me. [56:05] And he really needs to know something. And I'm completely blanking him. [56:11] Like, I'm just... He's going, you've got to tell me what's going on, man. He's like, it's awesome. Like, what is the thing? And I'm just... [56:18] like literally kind of [56:20] Blanking him in this bizarre way, which which like was really frustrating him in real life because he he was that feeling of like it's fucking tell me, dude, it's you and be like, right? And finally goes, it screams out. I don't trust you right now. That's a fucking problem, right? Which is like what you would say to an old friend. Like, what are you doing, man? Like, what?

[56:42] What are you doing? Like, tell me the fucking betrayal. Lie to me or tell me the truth. Lie to me or tell me the truth. Don't fuck me and, like, step outside our whole relationship and all of a sudden just act like, you know. Give me this weird look of just like, I don't know. [56:55] You know, like, and so we were doing the scene. [57:01] It was really fucking pissing him off. I could see him, like, getting, like... Yeah, the one line that wasn't written that I saw that I didn't remember doing was, I would have never fucked you like this. I would have never fucked you like this, yeah. Which I didn't even remember saying. I like that. Keep that thing. I wouldn't have fucked you. And I thought, I was like, what is he? I thought, what did I just... And I still watched the playback. It was one of those rare moments, again. It was, like, where it was that thing of you doing all the work by not doing anything, which I didn't expect that to be the choice that you made. [57:31] you know leaving you out in the fucking cold i think the only thing i could rely on is like i you know i i would i wouldn't do this to you so do you have in those moments where you're you're ad-libbing a line where a line comes is it just just that feels like that's what you say yeah it's just kind of like you couldn't stop from saying it right you know but you have to be working with somebody [57:51] That makes that okay. You know what I mean? Because the part of your brain that will, like, govern you or tell you something's not okay, whatever, will step in if it's sort of like – [58:01] Listen, I expect you to fucking do this box. And there's directors and writers who really do really care about every word precisely. And that's how they do it. And that's fine. That could be great, too. For me...

[58:13] Like it, I find it's, it becomes more interesting and sometimes better stuff happens. If you actually feel like you don't have to say any of the lines, I don't say any of the lines in the scene. [58:22] then I'll tend to say the ones that feel right. But it's that fake thing that never happens in life, which is I'm never sitting here talking to you and think, what's my next line? What am I supposed to say and how should I say that? And it's not about the lines ever. It's not about the words. It's about what's the scene about, what's happening in the scene. It's one of the reasons why Curb Your Enthusiasm is so great. Because Larry David just gives you a place to get to. Yeah. It gives him kind of a loose agenda of what's going to happen. And then films a bunch of stuff. [58:52] Everybody figures it out. Yeah. And a lot of times that show's about... [58:55] The awkward shit in between when people are missing each other or not sure of themselves and a little embarrassed. Fucking genius show. It really is. And people talk like we're talking, like you occasionally talk over each other. There's a stumble. There's no one. Like, what? What the fuck are you talking? There's weirdness. Because what's also happening is that forces you to really listen. Right. And that is that is the hardest thing to kind of learn for young actors, I think, is it's really all about listening. [59:25] bunch of movies with Paul Greengrass and that's how he works where he where you just know the agenda going in you know some basic things that you you know what your guy needs going in like I was playing a chief warrant officer and I had to go through a door and there was a guy and I needed to interrogate him and I this is what I needed to know from him I needed to secure the house with my guys and I needed to get to this guy we needed to make sure everybody here was secure so and it just and they and he put me with a bunch of real

[59:54] combat veterans and we fucking went in and you know they're the extra thing that does your job for you it's just hat being around the real people putting the the cops from miami you know on these parts and it just like by osmosis you feel more legitimate the thing feels more authentic to the audience you don't know why because you don't know what the how what the fucking culture is of the tactical narcotics team in miami but when you see the real guys you kind of oh you're like yeah that [1:00:24] It's also specific to this because it's based on this real tactical narcotics team in Miami. [1:00:31] And the guy who ran that, this guy, Chris Cassiano, is Joe's friend, and he's the guy that my character's based on. So Chris was – Chris, we went – we rode along with Chris down there. We went with that team and watched them operate and then hung out with them. And then they came up and they were all in the movie, and Chris was around as a technical advisor the whole time. So any question like – [1:00:53] little details. All right, how do I go through this door? What do I do? What do you do here? What's the what's the protocol here? What you know, all of that stuff was kind of overseen by him so that it so that it was how they really do it. That whole fucking town is so did you ever see cocaine cowboys? Yes. The entire fucking graduating class of the police academy one year either wound up murdered or in jail. That's what happens. All of a sudden you push so much fucking money. [1:01:21] into something, right? And it's like, before they even kind of figured out, like...

[1:01:26] There wasn't even a lot of stigma. It was like, ah, cocaine, whatever. It's kind of rich guys, fun, drug. But there's some statistic about the amount of money in the banks in Miami was the same as the rest of the country. More banks per capita in Miami than anywhere else in the country because they were just laundering money and they got away with it. [1:01:47] They literally got away with that. Have you ever flown over Bimini? No. So if you ever fly over Bimini, there are all these Cessnas. [1:01:56] underwater and [1:01:58] all these planes like around the island because what they used to do, Bimini is like the closest, it's 50 miles off the coast of Florida. They would come in with a plane full of drugs and just crash the plane into the water. They would land it. On purpose? On purpose. [1:02:13] Because there's no runway on Bimini. There's no... It's like, fuck it, we're going to dump the plane in the runway and hang it out? They would have ten cigarette boats... [1:02:19] like a flotilla of boats waiting. [1:02:22] They would crash the plane. They'd offload the drugs as the plane was sinking. [1:02:26] Right. And and then they put it, they put it, they put it, the Coast Guard like figures that they're always coming for them. That's why they have 10 boats. [1:02:34] They throw the drugs into one of the boats... [1:02:37] And they got a one out of ten chance of making it. They just scatter. And the Coast Guard goes after one of them and hopes they get the right one. And not just like, no, I was just taking a cruise tonight. What's the problem, officer? But the planes are still all... [1:02:51] submerged. The water's so clear, you can see it. How many fucking planes? Oh, wow. Oh, there you go. That's crazy. How many fucking planes are out there? I flew over probably 20 years ago, but

[1:03:03] I mean, there's... [1:03:05] a lot. [1:03:05] I don't know how long but if you think of probably the cost of one of those little Cessnas probably wasn't [1:03:11] I mean, with the amount of drugs they were moving on. Yeah, there you go. Fucking wild. They're kind of landing where it's sort of shallow. Yeah, they land and it's like five to ten feet of water. And what do they land at, whatever, 55 knots? So you just try to. Oh, it looks nice, too. Like, yeah, sure. Wow. I mean, it won't be comfortable, but, I mean, Sully landed at 737 or whatever it was in the water. Yeah, fucking wild. What a crazy part of our culture that that happened. [1:03:41] The whole cocaine run during the 80s in particular, like Miami Vice, all that shit. It shaped the entire country. For sure. Oh, yeah. [1:03:51] I just remember that one guy in that documentary who was like, I think he was from Boston, and he was like the pilot, and he had figured out the route, and he was like, man – [1:03:59] Like, we could have gotten away with this forever. He was like, somebody talked, and he knew that's the only way we would have been caught. He was like, I had it all. He was clearly really smart. A ton of guys did, too. You know what I mean? There's a whole lot of people out there that were like, yeah, we had a nice run back in the United States. That's why I got eight houses. Oh, yeah. That's one of the real crimes that people got away with was bringing cocaine into this country. There's a lot of people that got very wealthy, including banks, which is just really crazy. Banks or the jewelry company. [1:04:29] Oh, yeah. There was, like, more Jaguar dealerships in Miami than ever in the country. He was like, doesn't pay to ask questions. So, yep, I guess a lot of people like our cars here. You don't say all cash. Sure.

[1:04:41] Yeah, we can make you a deal. Sure. How many backyards in Miami still to this day have bags just buried somewhere that nobody knows about? It's probably worth just checking. When you buy a house in Miami, just dig the yard up. Well, at least find out who owned it before you. Oh, he's a pilot. Get a truck. Get a tractor. [1:04:59] up the backyard. I mean, one of those guys in the films had millions of dollars just buried in his backyard. They had nowhere to put it. They were making so much money, they just had to bury it places. That's fucking crazy. Well, it's why it's the perfect backdrop for the film, you know, because you know, that the situation that the cops, without giving away too much of the plot, but the situation that the cops are dealing with is a very real situation. I mean, so many DEA agents turn dirty. So many cops turn dirty. It's because it just can get confronted. Yes. Like you take these people [1:05:29] you know you got like six seven people they fucking work for a living they have the same bullshit they have to deal with [1:05:35] And there's $20 million, you know. And, I mean, it makes for great, like, drama, too, even, like, you know, with the performances. Because all of a sudden somebody's thinking, like, okay, how are they going to react? You know, who would be the first person to say, you know, I'm going to have to turn this all in, you know. And, like, getting to play that shit. And for me also, I like, you know, without being, you know, sanctimonious or preachy, because I really think movies – [1:05:59] We're talking about like what they do well. What they do very poorly is deliver messages or lecture. As soon as you get into that thing, the audience is like, you know, I'm going to go to church for that or fucking school. I don't need that shit here. But I like that what was underneath it is like this is a fucking hard job. And that there's a lot of value. Like these characters, the ones that are trying to do their job, are trying to get through the day.

[1:06:29] the fucking ethics that they're supposed to and at the end of the day be able to sleep at night and believe there's some value in not fucking stealing the money or flipping somebody over, you know what I mean, and doing all that shit. And that's the win. [1:06:40] The win doesn't have to be get away with the bag of money or fucking, you know, saves the world from, you know, the evil scientist laser beam or whatever. It's like the end of the day, if you can fucking live with yourself and say, look, you know, I quit on myself according to what the fucking expectations were and what am I true to my word? And I think there's so like that's a I don't know that that affected me. I found that kind of moving and and you can't do it if you create like if it is to credit to your script, like just two dimensional characters. I'm the hero. I'm the villain or this person would never do that. [1:07:10] have to be real people like you would be subject to like temptation. Money just represents whatever that thing is you think you want or that's going to make your life better. You know, it's something different to everybody. But, you know, especially when you're like you're facing like, you know, the constantly thing or the, you know, the sick relative or whatever it is, that's. [1:07:30] It's a real thing. Nobody's immune to that kind of temptation. You know, sometimes I think it's cavalier to be like, oh, well, you're dirty. You're putting people in a very tough situation a lot of times, particularly if they're feeling like undervalued. Like the woman scene where Catalina is like, I get fucking pissed. I get yelled at. I get shit on. You know what I mean? Like I'm out here grinding every fucking day. You know, it's – [1:07:54] It's a lot to ask, and I think it's worth kind of making that heroic without sort of indicating too much. No, it's really well written because there's no suspension of disbelief moments, and that's hard to do in a big blockbuster action movie. There's always one moment in a movie where you're like, what? Come on. How do you do that? That's convenient. You guys don't have any of those. There's none of that, and I loved it. I loved it.

[1:08:24] I believed it. I believed it. And that's really a credit to Joe and his like taste. And that's why we really felt like this guy knew how to make NARC. He kind of obviously understood this world and understood that it has to above all, it has to feel real. And that's why he was open to like, OK, whatever happens, you throw in a line, maybe it's good. Can't get your feeling hurt if it's not, you know, but like you got to be able to take that shot. And we're all down, you know, trying to spend time with people. I mean, I can't feel for these cops, a bunch of actors to send on you. [1:08:54] It was like that Michael J. Fox, James Woods movie. Remember that movie? I forget what it was called. [1:09:01] Michael J. Fox is an actor following around James Woods. He's studying him for a character, and James Woods is a real, like, detective. And he's just like, get this guy away from me. I kept thinking of that. What kind of hair gel you use? Yeah, exactly. All these questions, you know. But they were very tolerant of us, which was nice. [1:09:18] And, uh, [1:09:19] And really, really helpful, you know, because it's all it's always details. It's always details. It's like how fastidiously do you do you. [1:09:27] kind of mine for those details. 'Cause I've always been convinced that like an audience, [1:09:33] It's like you were saying, they don't analyze why they don't believe something. [1:09:37] They feel it. They just don't believe it. And it's usually because those details are – you don't get those. And that's the only thing. Like I'm not great at imagining something. Let's invent this. Everything that I've done like that I like has been a result of something I found in research. Like for the town, I went down and just went through all the prisons out there in Massachusetts, federal prisons, state prisons, and sat down and talked to guys who robbed trucks and banks.

[1:10:07] sat down with the FBI guys and was like, what are they like? And the great shit, you know, for me is that, you know, and I'm in like, I'm in like wet wall pole or I'm in the prison dead. I'm or whatever. And I'm to some guy said, like, after talking for two hours, you know, I was like, is anything just fucking weird ever happened or fucked up? Anything you remember? [1:10:26] I was like, yeah, one time, you know, we were coming out of this thing. We robbed this truck. And, you know, we had the mask. We got the switch car. We drove around the corner and whatever. We pull up. We get out with fucking guns, the mask, the whole thing. And we look over. [1:10:40] And it's this cop sitting there doing construction duty. [1:10:43] And I was like, right then, he told me a story. I was like, oh, shit. I was like, what happened? [1:10:47] See you soon. [1:10:49] He looked at us. We looked at him. [1:10:52] He looked the other way. Whoa. And I was like, really? He goes, yeah. He didn't want to end up on the wall at the VFW. [1:10:58] It was these guys with full automatic weapons masks on Switching cars. I was like I'm putting that and it's it's in there. It's a great moment in the town like in the movie. Oh [1:11:08] Because, you know, they all jump out of the things. Yeah, I remember that scene. And then, oh, yeah, here it is. Yeah, exactly. [1:11:14] It's great, and it's this awkward – they just stop. [1:11:20] He sees them. [1:11:22] They see him. [1:11:24] He's like, fuck, we have to kill this guy.

[1:11:29] Nope. He turns away. Okay. [1:11:32] Wow. It's such a great, but that's straight from research, which I always love that story. [1:11:39] And then he and then the line is here that he put it here and one on the wall of FW. Yeah, it was a great You know, it's a great line. It was such a simple explanation for what do you think? What do you think he did? I? [1:11:51] You know, and why? [1:11:52] And that's exactly what it would have been. Like, that guy, the next day's picture would have been up in the wall at the VFW. Yeah. You know, and he knew it, and everybody knew it. He said he didn't want to do it like that. You know, that was... [1:12:04] And that kind of stuff is, I don't know, it's very human calculations and a very extreme version of it. [1:12:12] It also doesn't have, sometimes it's not dramatic at all. You know, it's like, yeah, that was an easy decision. And the guy never says anything. No, I didn't say anything. You know, and... [1:12:20] Kind of can't really blame him, you know? Yeah. [1:12:23] The Town was a great fucking movie too, man. And I knew a lot of people like that from boxing gyms and stuff. I knew a guy who was a hitman for Whitey Bulger. I knew a guy who was a friend of a brother of mine who went to jail for that, for murder, for killing people. What town did you grow up in? I lived in Newton. You did? Yeah, I grew up – I lived in Jamaica Plain for a little while. I lived in Newton, but I spent a lot of time in Boston because I was fighting. I was mostly training. [1:12:53] shady characters who were in the fighting world and a lot of them had backgrounds in crime. [1:12:59] One of the guys that I trained with, he went to jail for a little while, and then he got arrested because a guy got killed, and they broke every bone in his body with a hammer and kept injecting it with cocaine to keep him awake while they were doing it. And then they cut his hands off and cut his head off. And this guy that I used to train with got arrested for that. Jesus. Yeah. He didn't wind up going to jail for that. He's dead now.

[1:13:29] at least peripherally involved. Yeah, well, I didn't do any fighting, but I... [1:13:33] I went around and found a lot of things. One of the things about being an actor is people will talk to you, which is a fucking amazing gift. Even if somebody's like, oh, yeah, I killed guys. They'll just come out and it's kind of the rules all of a sudden don't apply. These guys in prison, what the fuck are they going to talk? You know what I mean? But they're interested in it for whatever. [1:13:52] So you avail yourself of that. And then I had like – we had people around that movie who everybody knew. Yeah, he did that job. He never got arrested. And so like people meet and talk to him. And it's interesting because the – [1:14:08] such a good lesson for doing this job, which is that they're never how you... [1:14:13] think they're supposed to be, like the murderer person. Right. You know, there's always something a little... I remember one guy was supposed to be like this really violent, kind of loose cannon fucking guy who supposedly had done all this shit, stabbed and killed two people, Faneuil Hall, and shot these guys in a robbery. And he like shows up with his polo shirt, kind of tucked in, you know. He said, how's it going? You know, just like I never would have fucking put this guy on, fucking killing four people. You know what I mean? He's like, yeah, have a good time. So I love that one movie, and you're just thinking, fuck, man. [1:14:43] like. [1:14:44] This is why it is a really good lesson for like, you know, we tend to read a script and, okay, this guy's the tough guy and he's going to be the it's like you work with like, you know, you're going to be the tough guy. [1:14:53] I had the fucking opportunity to train with these Delta guys. Like, you know, it's the most elite special forces combat fucking operators in the world. I mean, I suppose the SEALs will take exception to that, but just numerically, right? There's been less than 900 guys ever in the history of Delta.

[1:15:09] You meet him. [1:15:10] And they're not the biggest guys. They're not the toughest guys. They're not trying to fucking be hard. And, you know, they're the most relaxed, at ease. And, you know, I found myself just being like, can I just ask, what do you think makes somebody like qualify for the Delta Force? Like, what's a good Delta operator? It's like, you know. [1:15:30] Problem solving. [1:15:31] Problem solving? The guy goes, "Yeah, it's probably like your job." I was like, "No, let me tell you something. No, it's really not like my job. I appreciate it." It's a very big fucking difference. He's like, "Yeah, you solve problems." I was like, "No, should I kill me?" That's the thing. [1:15:45] But that was the closest insight I got to, which was... [1:15:49] I've always kind of thought this about guys like Brady or something. There's guys that just don't – [1:15:54] get tight and that they are they are kind of able to problem solve when the problem is like, well, that helicopter's crashed and we're 200 miles inside Afghanistan and we're outnumbered fucking six to one. How do you think we should get home? Like just having your wits about you to make that calculation while, by the way, you're in a fucking gunfight and things, you know. [1:16:14] I'm sure that does make – because those are the people where I'd be in a fucking panic and have no idea what to do. And you get, like, attracted to the person who's, like, seems to have a, like, hey, it's good. We're going to be okay. Everybody get your shit. We're going over here. You'll just follow that guy. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. But it's not always the most – [1:16:34] Maybe it's just because they're so confident. They're not like, I don't need to prove that I can kick anybody's ass. I don't even get in fights. Like, I have a weapon. You know what I mean? It's kind of like – it's just a – it surprises me how those kinds of, like, extraordinary experiences in people or extraordinary people don't always manifest themselves in –

[1:16:54] how they show up. But we have caricatures in the head of what these tough people are like. Well, you see that about MMA fighters. There's a lot of MMA fighters. You meet them. They're like the sweetest, nicest, friendliest people in the world. I remember going to one of the events in L.A. I think it was at Staples. And I was backstage and was talking to one of the lawyers for the UFC. We were talking about Conor McGregor, and he was telling me a great story about him. And this guy walks up. [1:17:24] And he's in like chinos, like khaki pants and like a blue button up, like, you know, kind of business shirt. [1:17:31] with spectacles and he's very small. [1:17:35] And I kind of don't really regard him. And I'm still hearing this story. And then Patrick goes, Matt, do you know Henry? And I turn and it's Henry Cejudo. And I'm like, this fucking guy. [1:17:45] could wreck me right now. Like, absolutely fucking destroy me. And he... [1:17:52] And he is the guy that some dummy would try to pick on. Yeah, right. You know what I mean? Exactly. He's not carrying himself. He just is the thing. [1:18:01] you know [1:18:02] This episode is brought to you by Dodge. The new Dodge Charger scat pack is built for people who still believe driving should be exciting. You want to talk about performance? Let's start with a twin-turbo six-pack gas engine. All gas, no mercy, 550 horsepower, 0 to 60 in just 3.9 seconds, and a top speed of 177 miles an hour. Woo!

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[1:20:02] That's half off at SimpliSafe.com slash Rogan. There's no safe like SimpliSafe. Too late. Yeah, don't find that one out late. A lot of guys do. [1:20:13] Unfortunately. Yeah. Well, they don't have to prove themselves, right? They do it all the time. The same with Delta Force guys. This idea that there's outwardly brash, tough guy. Usually that kind of machismo, that's bullshit. You're using that because you're insecure. The secure people are very calm and genuinely very friendly. Really nice. That's been my experience. Yeah, it's crazy, right? He was beautiful too. I've kind of like – [1:20:40] What a great guy. And you feel like, that's nice of you to be so sweet to me because obviously you don't have to be. Right, right. I'll just give you my watch if you want to. [1:20:49] Yeah. No, it is a fascinating thing. It's like we have these ideas in our head, these caricatures, you know, of what a tough man is, what a good woman is, what a this is, what a that is. And I think one of the beautiful things about film when a film is really good is you see these complex characters and it sort of like reformulates in your mind that. [1:21:09] like what a person actually is. Yeah, it's seeing all kinds of different people. Yeah. And yeah, yeah, I completely agree. I mean, look, the fundamental challenge, I think, in life and – [1:21:20] is like to find some... [1:21:23] Humility which means actually thinking you might be wrong about the shit that you're pretty sure about and it means that like you kind of have to assume Somebody else might have a point, you know, it's not like just writing everybody else off who disagrees you because fuck him He's doing an asshole that you know, like those are things that actually take work to get to Because the the first instinct because you just defend your idea or whatever it's easier is to just that it's a zero-sum. Yeah, exactly Yeah, that that two competing ideas can't exist and

[1:21:53] Somebody can't be a good person and disagree. Right, right. Like, if you can decide, you can disagree, we don't believe, I don't know, what about this, what about that? But once you find yourself relying on, like, well, I need to, like, zero out this person's humanity in order to defend my idea – [1:22:08] I think that's a pretty good indicator that like there's something wrong with the way you're thinking like because it can't be that you're right about everything and everyone else is bad who disagrees. I think that was one of the most interesting things about the Sopranos is that the main character, the guy that you loved was a fucking murderer. Yeah, he was like who would murder his friends. [1:22:29] He was a complete mobster and a thug, but you really loved him. You loved the shit out of that guy. It was so complicated. I'm re-watching it with my daughter right now. And Jimmy was so good at doing the part that you found yourself being like, I don't know, I think he probably has to kill him now. Yeah. Probably got to kill him. That's also a great actor. Like, there's a very famous story about Marlon Brando when he did Streetcar Named Desire. And Tennessee Williams, who wrote it, like – [1:22:57] freaked out because he was making Stanley Kowalski, he was making people empathize with Stanley Kowalski. And Tennessee Williams was like, but I wrote him as a brute. He's this, he was like a two-dimensional brute who just came and beat up his wife and, you know, and was just, and was supposed to be this kind of dark looming force over the play. But Brando was like, no, he's a human being and I'm going to play him like a fucking human being. And, and it changed the, the play. [1:23:22] But Williams in all of his writings – That so much more reflects life in the real world. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Everybody's the hero of their story. Everyone has the reasons for why they're doing –

[1:23:30] And people don't set out to be like, I'm just going to hurt someone or dominate the world. Like, you think, well, I got to protect what I have. It's like, you know, I'm not bringing back this movie, but it's like what I liked about Rip was it was kind of the slippery slope. You know, the first time you take a little money and then, well, you know, I got to cover that. I don't want to go to jail. I think my reason why I did that. But now I've told a lie. Now I got to cover that thing. And now you have guys who both live by this code that's very, hey, you protect the people who are with you and you got to have this fucking. And so now it's to be a very similar thing. [1:24:00] Like by that kind of slippery slope of ultimately find themselves, you know, well, they kill one another because it's really not. I don't I don't believe in that one choice. It's like more. How do you find yourself? You dig yourself in a fucking hole because you're just covering up the light trying to fix the last problem that's arisen, you know, and everybody thinks. [1:24:19] of course the roots for themselves, is like empathize with themselves. That's what we have to be concerned with ourselves, our needs, our families, our basic shit. It's hard to expect people to go like, all right, and what about, you know, [1:24:33] like what they think. And I think that's [1:24:36] I think it's a much more honest evaluation of people, and it allows for complexity and forgiveness and fucking all the shit that's – [1:24:44] sort of beautiful about people like rather than this notion of like, well, we're going to be binary, good or bad, perfect or not, whatever. And any infraction, then it's like permanently stains you. Right. That's like what we were talking about earlier about people that have been canceled, you know, that the.

[1:25:00] this idea that one thing you said or one thing you did, and now we're going to exaggerate that to the fullest extent and cast you out of civilization. In perpetuity. Yeah, it's fucking crazy. And yeah, I was because because I bet some of those people would have preferred to go to jail. [1:25:18] for 18 months or whatever, and then come out and say no, but I [1:25:22] I paid my debt [1:25:25] Like we're done. Can we be done? Like the thing about – [1:25:30] that getting kind of excoriated [1:25:34] publicly like that it's just never ends. [1:25:36] And it's the first thing that... [1:25:39] You know, it just will follow you to the grave, I think. It's also this problem that people have with people that are in the public eye. They have this, like, desire to chop them down always. You know, and anybody that stumbles in the public eye, they want to destroy their life. And they want to just pile on. And you're not there with them. You don't feel the empathy. You're not talking to them. They're not a human being. It's just text on a screen. Right. It's just like kind of, like I was saying, like that kind of sixth grade instinct to be like, oh, he's in trouble. [1:26:09] We have dark. [1:26:10] fucked up instincts too sometimes to like isolate people or get joy out of someone else's they're in trouble because maybe because part of it's saying hey it's not me you know so if you can point the finger everyone's looking over there we feel safer you know right but it's it's like and to to take any forgiveness out of it you know is a really fucked up thing because then it makes it impossible a to actually go all right yeah i did that fuck shit that was wrong i get it you know because it

[1:26:40] an outcast and I don't think anybody wants to think you know like you're the sum total of who you are is your worst moment. Right. You know, it's sort of like, [1:26:49] I think you want to be judged just as well. Are you capable of doing something good or something beautiful? It's not to say to forget. There's people that just over and over and over and are doing horrible shit, don't care. I get it. No one's trying to absolve that. But you remove the ability to sort of forgive people or look at them in a complicated way. Or else it's kind of become those things that's like a – [1:27:08] Get one of ours or one of them, the instinct to get, like, team, tribal oriented. And it just becomes a sport. Yeah. Yeah. [1:27:16] It's also like who wants to live in a world with no forgiveness and redemption? That's crazy. Like that's just denying the very nature of human beings and that people do things that they regret. And then they become better people because of it. Some of the people I would rely on the most, like trust my kids with the most, have done shit that they really regret. And it was objectively wrong. And other people have been like, shit, I did that. I fucking – whether it's like addiction, I got myself down this fucking road. I did this. I did this. [1:27:46] of [1:27:47] They're able to go, I did it. I'm sorry. It's real. I shouldn't have done it. It was wrong. [1:27:51] Actually, those people can become someone that's very trustworthy. Yeah. Because you're like, this motherfucker will say if they've done something. They'll actually look at their own behavior. They'll acknowledge it. And then you feel good and you feel much versus someone who tells you like, I always get it right. Well, it's like it's about evolution, right? And in our own personal evolution. And we're all on our own path towards that. Like the idea of attacking someone, it's like, oh, so you –

[1:28:21] You ace the test, like put your pencil down, like you nailed being human, you're done. If you did nail being human, that's not possible because you forgot about the part about forgiveness. You haven't nailed it by definition if you're out there throwing stones. It's most of the people that I find, especially when there's someone that's publicly in trouble for something. [1:28:41] Most of the people that I know that have attacked people have a lot of questionable shit in their past. And it's almost like they're trying to hide that by going on the attack. Yeah, that's the thing. Like, if I can point my finger, it's like, who's going to be? Yeah. Oh, he's a good guy. Ben's a good guy. He's calling them out. Yeah, exactly. Meanwhile, you know. And if you, like, yeah. It's like you were telling me to see Wake Up Dead Man, the third Knives Out movie. Oh, it's great. And I watched it. I really liked it. I thought it was a really interesting, like... [1:29:08] you know, I'm not a religious guy. I don't like that. You know, and yeah, I'm aware of all the like, okay, you know, [1:29:14] there's the religion, then there's people who are supposed to be rational. I thought it was a really beautiful movie about, like, what's the role of grace in life, you know? Yeah. And a really honest examination of that, like, sitting side by side with, yeah, okay, you don't believe that. But, like, and, you know, it's not about, like, whether you're going to argue over fucking evolution. It's about, like, how graceful are you in your life? You know, how much fucking dignity can you afford other people?

[1:29:44] than yourself and that there's a reason to to like to try to sort of be to find that grace to get better you know it was really beautiful and kind of rare and uh really surprised i was really surprised too i i kind of put it on and not you know not not [1:29:59] I loved it. [1:30:03] Yeah, I loved it too. I think it's one of the best of the three. [1:30:06] It was my favorite of the three. Those are great. Daniel Craig is great in that role. He's fantastic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He goes from James Bond to that. And so many other things as well. So it was Joshua O'Connor who played the priest. Because I first saw him on The Crown. The Crown, yeah. I liked him a lot. Fucking, man, what an actor he is. [1:30:26] Really, really good. How much film do you guys consume? Do you spend a lot of time watching films? Well, with the company, it depends. There's a lot. Like if we're working, we're watching cuts after cuts and going to the editing room. Like there's a lot of kind of work around films. [1:30:41] all the stuff that we have going that eats into a lot of time. Mostly trying to keep up with what people are doing. My issue is really that we've kind of developed this pattern where all these sort of movies that come out and are more interesting, they're all jammed out at the last fucking month of the year. And so all of a sudden – [1:30:58] You're trying to raise some of those movies. - You got homework. - I got really lucky. [1:31:02] uh recently my son you know 13 society he wants to like watch movies you know and i give him shit like what are you fucking we always look on tiktok and shit like we want let's watch a movie and you know he's kind of blowing me off and rolling his eyes and he's like you know i mean if you're a dad you're kind of an asshole fundamentally like come on right you don't know what's going on you know what i mean like he told me one time he was like dad

[1:31:23] I said, let's watch this movie. I played in the trailer. [1:31:27] It was, I can't remember what the movie was. It was a good movie and the trailer was good. He just looks at it and goes, you know what you guys ought to do? You guys ought to work with some of the TikTok editors. [1:31:51] So I said, okay, what are the great movies? I'll give you a list. I start giving them a list. They started watching them. [1:31:57] And so, I mean, this is like heaven. For me, it's supposed to be like, okay, what are you watching? King of Comedy. Like last week, I watched The Axie Driver, King of Comedy, all these Scorsese movies. And it really was like, oh, man, because in my mind, I'm like, sure, I've seen that movie. I know. I watched them again. It was like crazy. [1:32:12] I realized how much better they were than I even could appreciate when I watched it when I was younger. And it was just the most beautiful fucking experience for me to watch with my son, like taking an interest. The older two have always been a little bit like, yeah, dad, no, great. But hey, you guys want to come to the premiere? No, not really. [1:32:31] You guys want to come to the set? No, I'm good. Well, it's just too much familiarity. You grow up with a dad who's a movie star, just like, meh. The kid's got to, and I get it. You've got to be your own person, do your thing. [1:32:42] shit and I get you know I never even so I never expected it from my son and I don't know that he's gonna you know and I wouldn't want to lean on the key get into the family business most of the time it's just like you know we go to like basketball games baseball all that stuff but it but this was a really that was like I was like so joyful you know what I mean I sit there was moves and my my kid

[1:33:06] I was like, this doesn't get better. This is the happiest I may ever be in my whole life. Right here, watch this movie. And he's like, well, he's telling me what he thinks. It's just like, honestly, the rest of it, you can fucking keep it. That's awesome. That's the best. Well, it's great that you guys still love film. It hasn't become just a job. It hasn't become a thing that you do, that you really enjoy it and love it. [1:33:31] Yeah, it was never a job. I mean, it really, like, it was like an absolute dream from the time we were kids. We did fucking high school theater together, you know? That's crazy. It was like, we're lucky to get it. And lucky to, the whole idea that you could even, the goal is to make a living. To not have to be like, well, I'm an actor, you know, slash a waiter, contractor, dental assistant, whatever the fuck it is. You know, like, actually, I can earn money. I can, and we always figured, like, I don't need that much, especially if we don't have kids. Yeah. [1:34:01] make a living or it's, you know, maybe it's fucking going to be dinner theater or maybe it's going to be right. Maybe it's going to be. There'll be a job somewhere that we can find where we can do this and keep doing it. Yeah. Well, there's something that I mean, I love when people love things. I spend time on YouTube watching people like fix watches, you know, like I don't know why, but I love when people make furniture. I love I love watching people do things that they really love that they're invested in.

[1:34:31] something someone who really loves it and that's what everybody really wants in life to be lost in the thing you love to have a purpose yeah yeah yeah and even watching someone else with true purpose yeah very hypnotic it reminds me of joe versus the volcano he goes into my luggage do you like luggage sir he's like uh he was luggage is the central preoccupation of my life that's a luggage salesman he loves nothing more than luggage and like that's the greatest scene i asked tom hanks [1:35:01] Saving Private Ryan. I was like, can you tell me about that scene? Because we love this scene so much. And he named the actor. He's a Broadway actor, I guess, the guy. He came in. He worked for like one day in this scene. And he's so good in that movie. And then at the very end, he's showing them all the luggage. And Tom Hanks has unlimited money to spend. He thinks he's dying. And so he basically goes like, well, what's the best luggage? And he goes, well, if I had the means, sir. And he opens up this thing and there's this trunk and it's like this music plays and he opens it. And Tom Hanks is like, [1:35:29] I'll take two of them. And he goes, may you live to be a thousand years older. [1:35:35] This is the greatest day of his life. [1:35:40] That's amazing. You guys have been in some fucking bangers, man. [1:35:44] Save a Private Ryan, that opening film, the storming of the beach. Unbelievable. That might be the most realistic depiction of war that's ever been made. So I remember reading the script and there was all this dialogue, all this stuff that was written. And I came late because I'm only in the – he shot it chronologically and I'm only in the last act of the movie basically. Yeah.

[1:36:04] and uh... [1:36:05] And he told me on set... [1:36:07] I was saying, how did it go? The beginning of the, you know, there's all that dialogue with them on the boat coming in. [1:36:14] And Stephen goes, he just goes, I cut all of that out. He goes, no talking for the first 27 minutes of this movie. [1:36:22] Whoa. And that was when I was like, oh my God, this movie is going to be fucking unbelievable. [1:36:27] I think Tom says like I'll see you on the beach or something. He's screaming, you know guys are puking. Look at the man next to you. He's not going to live to you. That was the script, right? Remember that? It was look at the man next to you. He won't live. He's going to die. Two out of three of you are going to die. So look to your left. [1:36:42] Look to your right and feel bad for those two sons of bitches because they're not going to make it. You know, it was stuff like that. [1:36:48] And Steven's just like, nope. [1:36:50] wow no these guys are puking they're it's like the things up you just hear you know and it's just like and then just boom and you're into it and [1:37:00] Also, they did this incredible cinema changing. Open the shutter. Open the shutter all the way. It took all the motion blur. It skipped the bleach process in developing the film. [1:37:12] And I don't know if they're going to 22 or 23 frames anywhere in there, maybe. But I just remember, maybe it's just the open shutter. It just means that instead of the motion blur is what makes something that moves across the frame quickly. If you look at each frame, it's like a blurred thing. And when you roll those at 24 frames, it gives you this [1:37:30] the illusion that it moves across fluidly. And if you basically open the shutter up so you get much more light, each frame takes a super sharp picture. And when you run those together, like the piece of dust goes. And so the mortar explosions are going. And you get that feeling that you're adrenalized and you're seeing, you know what I mean? And it's just, and nobody had ever done it. And the master of the thing. Yeah. He understood how to use the tools and combined with a great idea. And it's, that's just masterful. Like that's just how you do it.

[1:38:00] You go, ah, Spielberg. That's how you do it. [1:38:03] That's... [1:38:04] This is like you say, one of the things, a guy that's passionate and also, you know, caring about something, you know, it's that with that much passion is kind of connected to greatness. Yeah. And it's, I think, why we love to see that, whether, you know, sports, fucking, you know, fighting. [1:38:21] or whatever it is, there's something that makes you kind of love being alive and also love that person when you go, fuck, like when you see Michael Jordan. There was that whole movie that we did airs really all about like what does it mean to be great? And how does it like touch everybody and change everybody and make people want to fucking improve their own lives because somebody is just – [1:38:43] better at that thing than anybody else in the world. It's transfixing. I find that really fascinating. People who are great at something and the mystery of like, well, what is that like? And what does that do to your life? And how did you get that way? And what does it take? And what's the cost? Because to truly be great at something, you have to kind of almost abandon everything. [1:39:07] I've seen that in various ways. Like, [1:39:09] in that kind of just empirical personal study. [1:39:14] I haven't seen anybody who I think qualifies for that who didn't also seem to be really suffering. A hundred percent. You know, and you're like, damn, you should be so happy. You're the greatest. And, you know, interviewers always go, how do you feel right now? [1:39:25] There's that sense that, like, it's never finished or it's never enough or they can't enjoy it or they're carried. It's a line we put in air where it's like, you have to be that thing. You have to be that thing. You know, like it's a kind of a bird, too, in a way. 100%. And I just see that. And that's why we want these heroes and people who are great to, I don't know, you know, flourish, have their life, have it all in hand. There's all this tragedy and all this stuff that happens, too. And it's, yeah, that's like you said. There seems to be a real cost.

[1:39:55] always a massive cost in personal relationships because there's no way you have the time for other things and the obsession that you have to be the best at something you have to abandon almost all your concern for everything else you have to have this single-minded focus and that comes with the cost for the rest of your life because you damage relationships you feel like a piece of shit and you see that up close and like that's not admirable right yeah you don't give a fuck about anybody else no i do i just care about this more you know it's like so imagine that [1:40:25] making the sacrifices and it's causing. This episode is brought to you by blinds.com. Texas summers don't mess around with patio surfaces easily reaching 150 degrees, hot enough to make your backyard feel like a punishment. And if your windows are bare, indoor temperatures can go up 20 degrees. Get ahead of it with custom solar shades for your den and your patio from blinds.com. Whether you want to do it yourself or have a pro handle everything, they've got you covered. [1:40:55] so you can shop whenever you want but still have access to real design professionals. They'll even send free samples. Blinds.com has been doing this for 30 years, and they back everything with a 100% satisfaction guarantee so you can order with confidence. Right now, my listeners can get an exclusive 40% off when you spend $500 or more at Blinds.com and use the promo code ROGAN40. Limited time offer. Blinds.com. Promo code ROGAN40.

[1:41:25] and restrictions apply. This episode is brought to you by Tecovas. All right, guys, if you want boots that are made right, you got to check out Tecovas. Their Western boots are sturdy and clearly built to last, but really sharp and premium too. You don't need to break them in either. They're comfortable straight out of the box and great boots for those summer concerts, weddings, work events, whatever. And they're versatile too. You can wear them with jeans, dress them up or down, [1:41:55] you need. Tocobus has all the classic leathers like cowhide and goat, but they've got all the exotics too for when you want to level up your look. [1:42:04] If you've been thinking about your next pair of boots or, hey, even your first pair, go check out Tecovas in-store or online at tecovas.com. That's T-E-C-O-V-A-S dot com. And right now, get 10% off at tecovas.com slash Rogan when you sign up for email and texts. Injury to people and you know it. And you don't want to hurt them, but you can't help it. And you're getting rewarded for it. You know, it's... [1:42:32] It's complicated, yeah. It's crazy because you inspire all these people that don't know you, and you ruin all your relationships. Right, right, right. Maybe that's why I say don't meet your heroes. [1:42:42] There's something to it, man. There really is. [1:42:45] But it's just we all grow from it. There's a fuel to watching greatness. There's a thing that hits you and lights you up where you want to do more. You want to be better. You want to whatever it is that you can do, whatever it is you do do, you become more – whether it's a great game, a winning touchdown, whether it's a great film, a great song. Yeah, it lights you up. And it's the fuel that we all live off of that consumes – like we consume to make our culture move forward.

[1:43:15] There's like a sacrificial element to it, the people that do it, and we all feed off of it. And it feels like, well, that's the person that doesn't get enough out of it. Right, right. But in great filming, how many lives have been changed by decisions made after great films? Like when I was a kid, I think I was like seven or eight or something when Rocky came out. [1:43:35] I saw it and immediately ran around the block. I've never run in my life. I was eating raw eggs. I'm like, this is going to change my life. There's things that happen when you see something truly great that it makes you want to be better as a human being. I remember where I was when I saw... [1:43:54] Denzel Washington played Malcolm X. Went to the movies and watched that movie. I remember leaving. I'm not, I was 19 or something. I'm thinking, I want to be a better man. [1:44:01] I thought that in my mind, you know, because of what I had seen this actor do and the way – that was the only real conscious thought I had. But I remember having it and kind of being surprised by it, you know. And it does. That shit can – you know, it's really touched me. You know, a lot of fucking – [1:44:20] people's work. And that's why you get that... [1:44:24] You know, you see people and you want to let them know, you know what I mean, and tell them. I always think people come to me, oh, I love that movie. I always feel like, ah, you don't have to say that. You know what I mean? Right, right, right. It makes me kind of uncomfortable, and I don't ever, like, put myself in with those figures who I think are like, oh, but there's these towering giants who have done this, you know.

[1:44:46] I don't know. It's... [1:44:48] It's it's it's I finally kind of arrived to a place where it's like it was a couple people. Oh, I saw a good one thing. It made me want to go out to Hollywood, write a script. And I think, oh, shit, I don't know. You know what I mean? Like, sorry, man. [1:45:02] At a certain point, I figure, OK, you know what? Whatever it is, like, great. That's the thing that the cost of your fame, you know, that you have to there's going to be a bunch of people that are going to come up to you and they want to say those things to you. [1:45:18] the mindset that you need to make those things. Right, exactly. Which is so counterintuitive. You think like once you become really successful and you make a bunch of great things, it's going to be awesome having all these people come up to you like, no, no, no. I'm doing something else right now. And I can't be all wrapped up in the fact that I'm changing your fucking life. And also I can't be satisfied or take any fucking joy in that because I don't think I'm good enough. I need to fucking, you know what I mean? Right, never satisfy. Yeah, you can't. And that's the darkness of trying to do something great. You'll never be satisfied. [1:45:48] You see it in a lot of the fighters, the same kind of thing, the great, great fighters? Well, also, fighters have a very small window of greatness. There's only like a certain amount of years where you can burn the RPMs at the red line. And then eventually the knees go, the back goes. Is it earlier than other sports? It must be. Yes. I think so. Because like Tom Brady is still elite. I bet he could probably play football right now. I bet he, you know, how old is Tom now? He's probably 47 or 48 now, probably. I bet he could still play. Yeah, I mean, but that's a, yeah.

[1:46:18] I mean, that's a very specific skill position and the way he played it. Right. But running back, no. Right. But at – Cornerback. The elite levels of MMA, especially with USADA testing and now drug-free sport testing, when they are making sure that people aren't on testosterone and growth hormone and all these different things, like you have nine years. You have nine years at peak performance. That's legitimate. How long has John Jones been going? John Jones is a freak of all freaks. [1:46:48] Daniel Cormier when he was on coke. That was one of the funny things he said in the press conference for the rematch. Daniel was talking shit. He goes, I beat you when I was on coke. [1:47:02] I mean, he was getting arrested. He was partying. When he fought Gustafson, he beat Gustafson and he didn't train at all. I talked to his trainer. He's like, he didn't even show up at the gym. He was fucking never there. He was never [1:47:18] everybody's ass. I saw a thing on my Instagram feed of a fighter, and I don't know who it was, but he was a heavyweight, and... [1:47:25] He goes, I had the chance to spar with John Jones, to work with John Jones. And he goes, I knew about it months ahead of time. He goes, I got my nutrition. Everything was absolutely flawless. I got my sleep. Everything was on. He goes, I show up at the gym that morning. He goes... [1:47:42] It's me and five other guys. He goes, he comes in. I think he went to sleep at 4 in the morning or something. He was out all night. And he goes, he ran through all six of us. That's my buddy, Brendan Schaub. Is that who it was? Okay, yeah. It was the funniest story. And he goes, and then I just knew. There's levels. That's a level. But imagine being that elite.

[1:48:02] and realizing there's another level. [1:48:05] Yeah. Oh, yeah. Brendan was a top 10 heavyweight and John wasn't even a heavyweight. John was a light heavyweight. It was a lower weight class and he just beat everybody's ass. And he said, this is his warm up. He just get in there and just fuck everybody up. I mean, he has a unique aptitude for MMA, but also he had two brothers that were super athletes. [1:48:35] with elite athletes from the time he was a child. So he was just so tuned into competition, and he was so intelligent. Like, his fight IQ was above and beyond everyone's, and he would study tape meticulously. Well, that spinning... [1:48:52] kick that he did to that where he where he said he [1:48:56] And I think he thanked his Taekwondo coach. And he said he had been working on this one specific kick from both sides. Yeah. Because of something he saw on the tape. [1:49:06] And he got it off and hit this guy so... [1:49:10] Hard. Not even on his liver side. He hit him on the other side, and you see it shudder through his entire, like, organ structure. Yeah, his heel was deep into his body cavity, like, all the way up to his fucking spine. It was so gnarly. But he just practiced this one specific... [1:49:29] And he was like, and he even said, he goes, it is a devastating shot. Like, yeah, there's not a human being who could take that. No, it's like getting hit by a car. Yeah, because when you get hit by a car in one spot, the size of a foot, 13 foot. Oh, yeah.

[1:49:45] He sets him up. [1:49:46] Boom! [1:49:48] It's like, yeah, no, it's over, it's over, it's over. And this is John moving up to heavyweight because light heavyweight wasn't a challenge anymore. He decided to become a two-division champion. I mean, John was a freak. You see it rumbling through. And by the way, that was almost a little bit glancing because he caught him with a bent leg. Right, right. It wasn't even fully extended, which, you know, was even more devastating. But John realized that as a heavyweight, he didn't have the power that he had at light heavyweight. And so he said the most powerful kick is a spinning back kick. [1:50:18] over and over again because that's the one tool that I have that can knock a heavyweight out with one shot. Wow, okay. Okay. [1:50:24] That's just not just the physicals. He's also like a genius. He's also like he's the most meticulous when it comes to game planning and study. He will not take a short notice fight. Even a guy that he can fucking beat any day of the week. You wake him up at three o'clock in the morning. He can fuck that guy up. He will not take that fight unless he gets a full training camp to prepare for that fight. [1:50:45] Well, it's just greatness. But John's troubled. John's been arrested a bunch of times and DUIs and all kinds of crazy shit. He's a wild fella. And that pursuit of greatness, I'm sure, has cost him a lot of shit in his personal life. [1:51:03] But, you know, when he knocks D-Pay out and then did the Trump dance in front of the whole world, for that moment, he's on top of the world, you know. But then, again, it's like the same thing. As soon as you get back, like what's next? You know, there's another challenge. It doesn't matter how many people love you now. Like it's not good enough. There's someone else looming. You got to beat this guy.

[1:51:33] He keeps fucking moving the goalposts. I'll never forget. I interviewed Matt Hughes after he lost to BJ Penn. He lost the welterweight title to BJ Penn. And I'm interviewing him inside the octagon. He said, I'm going to be honest with you. It was actually a relief. [1:51:47] And he goes, the pressure of being the champion and having someone chasing you for so ever in the whole world, chasing you. He goes, I'm going to be I thought was incredibly. . . [1:51:57] Brave moment for a guy to say that who is, you know, just this fucking amazing human being this warrior to say I just got to be honest. It's a relief. Losing my title feels like a relief. [1:52:10] And I was like, wow. That is so brave to be that honest in front of the – because everybody's like, you just got your ass kicked. It's like, this is a relief. I took a burden off my back. I'll be back. I'm going to regroup. But I needed that. I needed to just step off the fucking top of the hill for a little while. Jesus Christ. You've got to be like a great, actually, relief to be able to say something like that. It's kind of a gift. Instead, I feel like you've got to hide it or pretend it and go, yeah, I'm not a relief. It's like it was a lot to carry. [1:52:40] Well, the thing about fighting is everything you try to hide gets exposed. You're exposed completely during camp because they're doing these round – well, they take like – Sorry, I was here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Smoke up. They're taking like five guys and they're rotating them in with you. So you're doing five rounds with fresh guys. So you've got one guy who is fucking warmed up, getting ready for you, and then you're fucking out of breath. They'll give you a 30-second break instead of a minute.

[1:53:10] And then they're throwing in these monsters. And you're exposed. You're getting beat in training. You're getting smothered in training. You're exhausted. You're always reaching your limits because the only way to surpass those limits is to hit them. You've got to hit them, and then they've got to figure out where that limit is. Okay, next week we're going to do one extra round. We're going to do this. We're going to do that. We're going to do more strength and conditioning. We're going to push you past wherever your capacity is right now. So you're always breaking. [1:53:40] And you can only maintain that. Like the condition that they get in when they step into the octagon, it's not possible to maintain that. No, right, right. You can only get to it. You have to aim at that one moment. Yeah, you have to peak. And then if you fuck up and overtrain, which a lot of those guys do just because they're such savages and they never want to leave the gym. [1:53:58] Then they don't peak right, and then they come in and they're exhausted. They didn't recover properly. And then in between rounds, they're too tired, and they can't go out for the next round. They're too beat up. [1:54:06] That happens too. [1:54:08] I imagine that level of exhaustion has to be just insane when you overtrain. Oh, God. In an actual championship. And you realize you can't bounce back, and this guy is fucking blasting your legs with kicks and hitting you with punches, and you can't get out of the way anymore. Do you think – who was it? Was it Khabib who said that they should just do 25-minute straight? Oh, a lot of people said that. I mean, that's a – [1:54:34] What... [1:54:35] The songs are playing? What's going on? I'm going to hit my fucking technology. The Teske brothers playing in my pocket. That's hilarious. Sorry about that. Well, Hoyce Gracie always said that. That was how he fought in the early days. They just straight 25 minutes. Because he was like, look, if we're on the ground, he goes, I don't want them to stand back up again and go in between rounds. And he goes, I need time to cook them. That's what he'd say. I mean, that's what jiu-jitsu is all about. Jiu-jitsu is all about staying one step ahead of you

[1:55:05] Until you become exhausted and then they eventually finish you. [1:55:09] Like a boa constrictor. Yeah. I mean, it's the real that's. But, you know, there's this balance of like making it. [1:55:18] interesting for this for people to watch i i've been a proponent of no stand-ups don't ever stand anybody up when a guy takes you down like you get an advantage at the beginning of the round anyway because a striker gets to be standing up when you didn't earn it yeah so you should never get stood up in a fight i don't care if the guy's doing nothing if he's holding you down and you can't get up that's how it should be so it's more realistic but it's the balance of it being a sport people want to watch yeah making it because people get when people grab someone to take them [1:55:48] The referee gets a little motivated and he stands people up. And I'm always like, ah, don't stand them up. I never thought of it that way, that the beginning of the round starts to the advantage of the strategy. Always, always, always. You're in a position you didn't earn. You never got back up. I think they should put them right back to where they were at the end of the round. Because it's one fight. It's not five fights. So if you start it standing up at the beginning of each round, that's a new fight. [1:56:11] Yeah, right. In a way. What you're pitching, how quickly would the UFC go out of business? Real quick. 30 seconds, they're on the ground, and then it's 24 and a half minutes. I'm a terrible businessman. [1:56:24] I would give the fighters more money. I would fuck up the whole business model. I would get rid of the cage. I would have them all fight in a basketball court. Just put mats on the ground in a basketball court. I don't think you should have a cage. I think the cage gets in the way. It becomes a way to get back up.

[1:56:41] Because you press your back up against the cage. You can use it to stand back up again. And you're in the middle of the center of a mat. It's very difficult to get back up. And that's realistic. Right. You know, you're using a foreign object to help you perform. Yeah, right. Yeah. But, you know, there's the whole macho thing about people fighting in a cage. And it's like they lock you in there. Yeah. [1:57:02] It's just. But, I mean, in terms of. [1:57:05] like inspirational performances and things that you when you see like the human spirit elevated to the the highest possible place when two very skilled men or women are fighting in a cage where they prepared for this for three fucking months and then you know the referee's like are you ready are you ready let's go and it's like that moment like is it's not not like anything else in all sports i think that's the moment that like people show up for yeah as they build the [1:57:35] with like the old Tyson fights or whatever. Like now it's going to happen. Yeah. And there's there. You can't help but have that feeling once it, you know. And yeah, some fights end up being disappointing, whatever. But there that moment is always there. Well, Tyson was a crazy example of what we're talking about with greatness, because like you could dedicate your whole life. You could fucking get up in the morning at the right time. You could eat all the right foods. You could do all the right training. But then you see that fucking guy. You're like, oh, no. There's nothing I can do. [1:58:05] You have no chance. You know if I look after he had the different look in his eye... [1:58:09] It was one of the only fighters where you'd just see the other guy was scared. Yeah. Usually they at least hold themselves together where they come off like, oh, I don't know, this guy looks pretty tough.

[1:58:18] Guys would fight Tyson and just would start and they'd feel that moment too. Oh, shit. They're letting this tiger out and here he comes. And it was like – Well, we're old enough to remember when he was in his prime and those fights were like executions. You didn't want to pay for the pay-per-view because they were so fast. I swear – I mean Jamie might be able to prove me wrong, but I'm pretty sure that they cut to Alex Stewart and they cut to his wife and she was crying. And this is when they're coming to the center of the ring. Oh, my God. [1:58:48] my husband right you know what i mean like we're certainly gonna beat the fuck out of him and she knows it and the world knows it and guys were ready to quit remember that dude hurricane or whatever white kid who fought him he's mcneely when he came in his guy couldn't wait to throw the towel and he had it ready like you know it was ready to go all right that's it that's good the bell rings he picks up the towel you got worked up save your guy's life you know what i mean mcneely's fucked up now too when you hear him talk it's rough it's rough to hear oh really yeah i saw him get interviewed recently that's the dark side of the sport of of mma and of fighting you know [1:59:18] Like I had Johnny Knoxville on here yesterday and Johnny Knoxville was knocked unconscious 16 times. Yeah. That's what I said. And I'm like, holy shit, man. And he seems normal. [1:59:29] Like he doesn't seem like he's got brain damage. Now, when you're talking to guys and you know they have brain damage, they're slurring their words and they're still fighting. Their words all mumble together like you have no idea how much they're struggling. Yeah, yeah. And they're going to be struggling in a downhill slope for the rest of their life. It's not going to get better. It's going to get way worse because the real brain damage occurs like 10 years after the injuries. That's what it really sets in. Really? It just keeps astrophying? It just keeps getting worse.

[1:59:59] Now there's – they do – and Knoxville did some of it, like this magnetic therapy that they do that re-stimulates neuron growth. And oddly enough, mushrooms, like psilocybin has been shown to regenerate. Mushrooms all of a sudden cure a whole bunch of shit. I know. Well, probably always has. Yeah, right, yeah. You know? All of a sudden they're acknowledging it, yeah. Well, one of the things that's opening the doors for them to acknowledge it is soldiers because it's always been kind of like a left-wing thing to be into psychedelics. [2:00:29] But all these soldiers are coming back with PTSD and drug addiction and a lot of CTE from bombs blowing up and IEDs and concussions. And the only thing that's helping them is psychedelics. So it's kind of like in Texas, former Governor Rick Perry has started the Ibogaine Initiative. So they're using Ibogaine to help all these different soldiers, which is ironically the drug that Hunter S. Thompson claimed Ed Muskie was on when he was running for president. Oh, really? Yeah, remember when he sank Ed Muskie? [2:00:59] What is Ibogaine? It's from the aboga tree, and it is a psychedelic that is in no way recreational. It is a very difficult experience. It's not fun for anybody. It's like a 24-hour trip. I haven't done it, but my friends that have done it say that it's basically like you see your entire life play out before you. You see where all your problems come from. You see where all of your emotional hitches are. Jesus.

[2:01:29] With one treatment, they quit whatever they're hooked on. What? Not only that, it rewires the brain. So the physical pathways to addiction, like someone who just stick to opiates, gone, completely severed. So you literally don't have a physical addiction to opiates anymore. So with one treatment, 80-plus percent of people. That's incredible. With two treatments, it's in the 90s. [2:01:51] It's amazing. It's amazing. And it's been illegal, you know, since like 1970 in this country. The sweet thing, like a clinic or whatever. Well, Rick Perry, because he's worked with soldiers and because he's worked with a lot of veterans that, you know, and he's a very compassionate and intelligent man. He realized, like, OK, maybe I'm wrong about all this psychedelic stuff. And so he started getting behind this Ibogaine initiative. They passed it in Texas and now they're doing it with soldiers and they're going to do with police officers. [2:02:21] Like I have a good friend who was a cop in Austin and he said – and he was also in the military. And he said what I saw in the military was nothing compared to what I saw as a police officer. Really? He goes I was seeing death and violence on a daily basis. He goes when you're deployed, he goes, yeah, you're going to see some horrible shit, but you're going to see some horrible shit mixed in over a course of time where you go out and things go live. He goes like every day. Every day you're going directly to somebody who's having the worst moment of their life. [2:02:51] pulling someone over and they might shoot you like you have no idea you're you're pulling up to uh tinted windows you don't know what the fuck is going on you're running the plate the the license is expired you have no idea who's who's in the car you don't you don't know anything and you've seen all the videos we've all seen videos of cops getting shot down like when they're pulling over a car we've all seen it and so these guys are living with this fucking ptsd all the time and then they have to live in real life they they're supposed to go home and they're supposed to just

[2:03:21] And their fucking head is just a hurricane of chaos. And Ibogaine has been very beneficial for those people to just sort of come down and try to find the root of all this stuff and get them off pills and get them on the straight. That's great. That's amazing. I don't know why we got on the mushrooms. Well, Ibogaine, because during the presidential elections, he started spreading these rumors. [2:03:51] What is that documentary? Is it Fear and Loathing? [2:03:55] Gonzo. Gonzo, that's right. In that documentary, Gonzo, he talks about it. So he's getting interviewed by Dick Cavett. And he goes, yeah, there was a rumor running around that Ed Muskie was on Ibogaine. And I knew about it because I started that rumor. [2:04:12] So the guy completely cracked. So this guy was like a frontrunner for the president. And he fucking completely cracked because everybody thought that he was on drugs. [2:04:25] saying there's these Brazilian witch doctors who are coming in to treat this guy. It's crazy shit. That's great. [2:04:32] They were like, and Hunter would know. [2:04:35] But it's crazy that he chose Ibogaine, too, because Ibogaine is like, it's not a recreational drug, and it's not a drug of addiction. It's literally a drug that stops addiction. No, but he was the guy that would have the whole book full of these drugs you've never heard of. They mention in a really casual way. Of course, four of us stopped to get Ibogaine at the one gas station that sold it.

[2:04:55] needles and nothing. Yeah, sure. No, of course you do. Yeah. But it does help people that have brain damage as well. It's supposed to, like, cause some sort of neuroregeneration. Yeah, yeah. There's stuff out there that can help people, but... [2:05:10] A large percentage of these fighters are silently suffering, and we don't ever hear about it. [2:05:16] They say like it's supposed to be that it's – like the argument is because it's – you know, they're not using a glove. Like that football is supposed to be – I mean wasn't that the sort of rationale that like – [2:05:26] You were going to have less impact in boxing because the boxing gloves. No, but remember, it's like the sub-concussive blows. It's not necessarily the one-shot knocking you out as much as the repeated... [2:05:38] kind of like small, like little bit of brain bleed. I'm sure that's like, they're all bad for you. You know what I mean? Like a version of knocks to the head or not. I think you'd be avoided. Yeah. [2:05:49] Well, it's also what you take in training too. We're only considering what happens during a fight. If a guy has 40, 50 MMA fights, that's 40. How many rounds does he have right in the gym? Oh, training camp is fucking brutal. And depending upon how intelligent your camp is, like some people are really smart and they'll spar where they're not hitting each other hard. And then maybe one day of the week they go live, but you do it with trusted – they're very close to you. These are people that you care about and love, so they're not going to try to hurt you on purpose. But sometimes not. [2:06:19] you're in a hostile gym and you know you got to spar with people you don't even know they're from other countries you have a big name they're trying to take you out

[2:06:26] You know, it's – [2:06:28] But the amount of damage these guys take, I mean, I don't know if football is better or worse. The thing about football is the big impacts are way worse. Because when you've got a 300-pound super athlete that's fucking full tilt. All the way from across the field. Boom! Running start. Yeah. You're getting hit by a truck. And that – but that doesn't – [2:06:53] It's not targeted necessarily at your head. So it's like what is better and what is worse? Boxing is bad. It's like you have less options. MMA is slightly better because especially if you're a grappler, you can take guys down and you can beat them up on the ground. [2:07:09] But it's ultimately you're paying a price. A hell of a tough way to make a fucking living. Yeah. For sure. But for that glory, for that one moment when they win and the fucking 16,000 people are on their feet screaming, there's probably no drug like that that could ever reproduce it. And those guys chase that high for their entire life. And then after it's over, they feel oddly detached. Right. Nothing ever rises to that level again. Right. You can make films until you're 100 years old. You can make great films forever. [2:07:39] you love forever. They have a little window. A little window of greatness. That's the really tough thing about being an athlete. We were talking to Pete Sampras that time we met. He was like... [2:07:49] We were probably, I don't know how, we were 30, he was 32, something like that. And he was kind of, we were like, oh my God, you know, he had all these fucking, you know, wins and grand slams. And he had a kind of vaguely like, yeah, he was like, yeah, you guys look, I'm about to retire. I'm finished.

[2:08:04] And we were, you know, young guys. We're, you know. Just getting started. You know what I mean? Like, also, the thing is, you get better at your job the more you do it. Yeah. You know, and so it's that thing with the athlete. I was having this conversation the other day. It's like. [2:08:17] You have all the physical skills at the beginning, [2:08:20] But you become better at your sport as your skills are declining. The body just doesn't want to do it anymore. You've got to just become Greg Maddox and compensate with all the tricks and location. [2:08:35] And that's why that drama of, like, the aging athlete is so powerful. We still have it. It's like, oh, do we still have it in me? Can I still do it? How long, you know, is what I've learned. [2:08:47] enough to compensate for what i've lost you know well there's an interesting story about vitor belfort so vitor belfort was he won the ufc heavyweight tournament when he was 19 years old that was like the first event i ever worked at 1997 i mean he was like one of the all-time greats for sure but as he was getting into his 30s he was starting to decline then the ufc allowed fighters to use testosterone replacement therapy [2:09:12] And boy, did he fucking use it. I don't know what his levels were, but they were like superhuman levels. And there was a moment in time for a few years where they allowed him to use testosterone therapy. And people refer to it as the TRT Vitor years because he was fucking terrifying because he has the mind of a veteran.

[2:09:42] So they're not allowed to use testosterone? No, they can't use anything. No. How about peptides? Can they use peptides? Nope. Nope, not even peptides. They're trying to take that and reform that, but... [2:09:54] There's a lot of ignorance about peptides, what they actually do. I mean all it's allowing you to do is soft tissue injuries, heal quicker and optimize your body's ability to produce hormones. So instead of adding exogenous hormones, you're allowing your body to produce them more naturally and it just makes you more healthy. For a very unhealthy job where you're getting hurt all the time, it's going to be better for the sport, better for the athletes to allow them to all use it. [2:10:24] system. So I hope they reform it. But the idea was that there's so many fucking loopholes and so many people cheat [2:10:32] Big camps used to hire scientists. So they had a scientist on staff that was not only – What did he do? Yeah, exactly. Not only procuring stuff that would slip by the test because there's like the Balco stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Clear, yeah. There's stuff probably right now that people are using that's slipping through. And there's a lot of experts that have – like one of the things is animal-derived testosterone. [2:11:02] I believe that's what they use to figure out where the testosterone came from. So if your testosterone is like at a very high level, they test all your other ratios, they go, "Well, no, it all seems likely." He's an outlier. He just has naturally high testosterone. But testosterone that you get from like synthetic testosterone is derived from a wild yam.

[2:11:25] believe it or not. Yes. It's not animal-derived testosterone. So the composite of it varies when they run the tests on it and they can determine. They can determine that it's yam-based testosterone. It's exogenous, not endogenous. It's the yam in there fighting. It's not happening. But if they can figure out a way to, and there's a lot of proof of concept to this, can they figure out a way to extract testosterone from animal sources? Bull testosterone? Something like that. Well, the taurine, they used to inject Hitler with taurine. [2:11:51] Hitler was like a fucking guinea pig for this one doctor who tried a bunch of shit on him. And one of the things they did was like inject him with bull testicles and stuff to try to keep him virile. [2:12:01] Yeah, but there probably are athletes right now that are using some shit that they haven't figured out yet. So to give them any loopholes at all, they're like, no, no, no, fucking no loopholes. No IVs, no nothing. No IVs. No IVs. Like vitamins and – Right, but the problem with IVs is you can mask testosterone and mask steroids by over flooding the body with liquids. Oh, I see. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So then when you piss – So the ratio is high because you add more water. Yeah, yeah. [2:12:31] fill them up with saline and then when they go to piss like nope clean that much look at the ratio because it's like so much water is being processed through the body right that it doesn't have time to show the testosterone so there's a way to mask it especially with like things that you would add to the iv um so there's no you can't it's only food and approved supplements through like really high level labs like thorn like thorn supplements where it's third party tested so they don't they can't do anything but for a while

[2:13:00] They let him do it, and those TRT Vitor days were my favorite fights to watch. Did they stop doing infighting because – [2:13:08] They thought it was like advantaging certain people or they should happen that they're like, this is fucked up. Well, they look at the difference. That's TRTV tour on the left. And that's him on the right when they made him get off of it. [2:13:18] Look at the difference. Jesus. I mean, that's fucking stunning. On the left, though, dude, that motherfucker was terrifying. When Luke Rockhold fought him, he told me, he goes, dude, when I stood next to him at the fucking weigh-ins, he had muscles on his teeth. He goes, this fucking dude was so jacked. He was so scared. I was like, what the fuck is he on? Because he knew he was on something. [2:13:38] It's just it's cheating. [2:13:40] It really is because you can jack your levels way above a normal human beings because that's what a lot of guys. There was a few fighters that were pulled from cards because, like, say, if a really high level is like 1,100, they were testing like 1,800, 1,900. They were like, this episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Summer means fun and making memories, but it can also feel like you're in survivor mode with packed schedules, keeping the kids entertained, and chaotic routines. [2:14:10] fun. You've got to make sure that you're taking care of you, and therapy can help with that. From setting boundaries to making a space to recharge, it can help make your summer more balanced and enjoyable. With BetterHelp, you can connect with a licensed therapist online. You'll be matched based on your needs and can switch any time if it's not the right fit. With millions of clients worldwide, people are finding the support they need with BetterHelp.

[2:14:40] Say yes to everything this summer. Find guidance in therapy. Visit BetterHelp.com to get started. That's BetterHelp.com. This episode is brought to you by Manscaped. Wondering what to get your dad on Father's Day? [2:14:58] The Beard and Dome Bundle from Manscaped is a really solid option. I've been using their Dome Shaver for a while now, and the thing I like about it is how easy it makes everything. You don't have to think about it. It just glides over your head, gets everything clean, no weird patches, no going over the same spot ten times. Honestly, it's so much better than anything. [2:15:18] any of the other brands I've tried. And then there's the Beard Hedger. It's got this zoom wheel with 20 different length settings. It's built right in. So if you want to get your dad something he'll actually use, the Beard and Dome bundle for Manscaped is an easy pick. Get 15% off plus free shipping with the code ROGAN15 at manscaped.com. That's 15% off plus free shipping with code ROGAN15 at manscaped.com. People that have never lived before. [2:15:48] They were like a science project. You had different species. And they were insane confidence. Insane confidence. Because they were essentially like a raging gorilla. They were just insanely confident. And it's just so fired up. They couldn't wait to smash somebody. Because they were just fucking maniacal. They were a berserker. So it's not a person anymore. Now you're a science project. There are rare outliers. Like Tyson when he was in his prime. It's rare physical specimens. That's part of the game.

[2:16:18] God. That's nature. This is not Balco Labs. And so they won't allow them to do anything anymore. And that's why. It's because too many – and Vitor was one of the guys that tested way over the line. And then they just decided – The guys are pushing it like that. Yeah. But that's what they're going to do. If you say – If you say it's legal, they're just going to take as much as possible. Some is good. More is better. And, you know – Yeah. If you say, oh, you did one CC a week. They're like, I heard five. I heard five CCs. And these guys are just training five times a day. And they never get tired. And they recover like that. [2:16:48] Never have to worry about soft tissue injuries because they heal like you're a fucking six-year-old. You know, you just – your body just like – You're like fucking Wolverine. Yeah. Oh, yeah, man. Well, that's the thing about peptides too, the Wolverine stack. BP157 and TB500. I don't know if you ever get injured. If you ever get injured, get immediately on BP157 and TB500. I didn't hear about TB500. What's that one? Thymosin beta 500. Oh, yes. In conjunction with BPC157, it is a fucking phenomenal stack. [2:17:18] I didn't know they called it the Wolverine. That's what they call it, the Wolverine. For healing. Yeah. Because you fucking heal incredibly well. Like, you like it quickly. I was talking to a pro football player. Pulled his hamstring. He's like, dude, I shot that shit right into my hamstring for two weeks. I was right back on the field. Wow. I was like, that's nuts. Yeah. I go, what is a normal rehab? He goes, three months. [2:17:35] He goes, in two weeks, I was back on the field. I go, what the fuck? He goes, I don't know how bad the injury was. He goes, but to me, it's like, fuck. I pulled my hamstring. I'm fucked now for X amount of days. He goes, and two weeks later, I was playing full tilt.

[2:17:47] Wow. I'm like, that's nuts. And going right into the area of the injury. Right into it. Some people think you don't have to do that. They think it's systemic, so you just stick it in your fat on your side. But he's like, no. And most athletes will tell you the best benefit is local. Shoot it locally into the area. And it just has – Like cortisone or whatever. What is the – Yeah, cortisone. But cortisone just masks it. That numbs it or whatever. Not only that, it has a tendency, if you do it too many times, to weaken tendons. Yeah. [2:18:17] So it could actually exacerbate the problem because it takes away the pain. Right. Yeah. It takes away the pain. But I mean, you know, then there's the enhanced games that are coming out in Vegas this year. I know. My friend had that idea a long time ago. He was like, you should just do the drug Olympics for cash. He goes, do it in Vegas for cash. And then the enhanced games. They're doing it. I sent him a telly. I was like, they're doing it. [2:18:39] Yeah. And it's just like, oh, that's rough. I'm down. I love, let's see what a human being can do. That's what I think. I mean, look, when Barry Bonds and, you know, Sammy Sosa and those guys were cracking out home runs, it was one of the most exciting times of baseball. It was pretty exciting. That's why they didn't do anything. They knew it was not a fucking mystery to anybody. But Avery's tuning in. Look at the Bash brothers. They did baseball on a strike. [2:19:01] They almost fucking destroyed that league, and then people started watching. Yeah, they brought it back. And then Bonds is like, well, these two fucking guys are hitting this many home runs. I'm the best player in baseball, which he was. And when he did it, it lights out. You know what I mean? He had a year where he only swung and missed 26 times. 162 games. Three and a half at-bats a game. Only swung and missed. I mean, that's just...

[2:19:27] And, yeah, Maguire would just move his wrist to get the ball out of the park. And it was fun to watch. And when people say steroids don't make you a better athlete, well, they maybe don't make you a better athlete. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But if you're a fucking Barry Barnes. If you're already an elite athlete, yeah. If you let Jon Jones do all the juice he wants, he'd be fighting until he's 50 and fucking people up. If you say, Jon, we've really come to our senses. This sport's all about excitement. I want to give the people what they want. [2:19:57] based on their own discretion. Oh, it's like that. Welcome back. Welcome back. Then all of a sudden, John looks like Vitor in that picture. He'd be undefeated. By the way, John beat Vitor when Vitor was in his prime, and Vitor caught John in a full arm bar, totally locked his arm out, hyperextended it, popped it, went backwards. You can see the video of it. His elbow is going that way. He wouldn't tap and then beat him in the next round. With one arm. Yep. [2:20:22] One arm. His arm was fucked for like a year after that. [2:20:26] Yeah. [2:20:28] Give that man some steroids. Let's see what he can do. Steroids. Let him be the king of the world. The dream team. It's like, you know, the first time the pros went to the Olympics, whatever, the year 92. Oh, yeah. They won every game by 70 points. Yeah. It wasn't close, but it was a hell of a lot of fun. It was fun to watch. Well, the argument for that made sense, though, because, like, these other people are being compensated in their countries. Oh, yeah. I had no problem. And by the way, now it's got more. That last Olympic championship, that was a great game against France. That was fabulous, you know?

[2:20:58] smaller countries and stuff, but okay. You're playing pros. They're playing pros. The whole definition of amateurism has gotten a little bit like, you know. Yes. [2:21:07] People find a convenient definition of it according to what's their... You see in college sports, it's changing and stuff. Look, I got no problem if you're going to apply the rules evenly, but sometimes when it feels like it's just an excuse for the NCAA to make a billion dollars off the TV deal, I'm like, no, no, no, you guys, you're getting education. Right. It's like a little bit like, yeah, you're getting education. You guys are making a lot of money [2:21:28] play. [2:21:29] It's exploitation. Yeah. Yeah, and I'm glad they've changed that with college sports because these guys are the reason why you're filling up the seats. And they deserve that money. And not even one of them is going to be in the NFL. Right. You know what I mean? Some of them, that's their window to make that fucking money. You know what I mean? Like, it's hard. It's hard. And the risk of catastrophic injury is always there. It's constant. Constant, yeah. And the metrics for the – it's like, what is it, a two-and-a-half-year career or something? Really on average. Yep. Depending on your position. [2:21:59] just fair and obvious. You can pay a kid to flip a cheeseburger out of college, but not to like, you know, come on. [2:22:04] Well, that's the great thing about doing something where you're not relying on your body, like acting. Yeah. You could kind of do it forever. Yeah. Keep going until you lose it. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's really – yeah, it's great. And it's got its own competitive aspect in this a lot. Of course. But like, okay, great. If you get a really bad on yourself and then the expectation is, well, I got to do something – [2:22:25] that's interesting enough that people want to watch it. Well, that's the proposition. How do you guys decide like on projects that you choose? Like, I'm sure you have so many options now. Like what, what,

[2:22:35] makes you say this is what I'm going to spend the next six months doing. It's really I mean, there are a bunch of different factors like like the director is being the most important one. But but if you read a script and like we've read so many thousands and thousands of scripts and written so many scripts and. [2:22:52] worked on so many movies that [2:22:55] If we read something and it's that thing we were talking about earlier, you get that... [2:23:01] get that kind of emotional something happens when you read it you go okay well then you then you pay attention to it maybe read it again go wait a minute [2:23:09] If it moves you in that way, ultimately the big decision is saying yes because – [2:23:16] Because you're going to spend... It's the last point over which you have... [2:23:20] Total control. Right. You know, and then you're in. Then you're in and and you're and you're in whether it's good or bad. I mean, I've been on those movies where I knew. [2:23:29] a month into a six-month shoot that, like, this is not going to work. And that is the fucking worst. What is that like? That's the worst. It is. I came to think of that. It happened to me. They're going to shoot us all when it comes out. Yeah. Okay. It's like it's all bad. It's like it's going to be 80, 16-hour... [2:23:48] days in a row and then a post-production period that's going to be pretty fraught and then it's going to come out and we're going to get fucking crushed. And then you're going to have to sell it. You're going to have to walk the fucking plank and sit down with access.

[2:24:04] Saw the movie. How important is that stuff still today? Like the press stuff. Is that still important? It is. I don't know to what degree each specific thing is. It's kind of ironic because we were talking about coming on this show today. I was like doing this show would be more meaningful than the rest of the shit we do in aggregate to promote this movie. Like we spent this whole week in New York doing, you know, I don't know how many interviews. You know, the quick ones with all the outlets. [2:24:34] All that stuff. And this, just given how many people listen to the show... [2:24:40] will be more meaningful we think i mean that's our we were speculating historically right if you look at it that's because they've changed to like all of it feels kind of produced and forced and advertised and and people have become resistant to anything that feels kind of like a gimmick and a shtick and you go on and you do your song and dance and they say the thing it looks great and nobody cares like they're looking to go either because somebody they know says it's interesting or somebody that they is trusted and a trusted person is in like your like you said your feed [2:25:10] or they affix that to somebody, which has become a more rare thing, like, [2:25:16] Who's like a legitimate neutral arbiter, right, who I can't predict what they're going to say before I go there. There are fewer and fewer of those people in the world, even those are proliferation of more and more voices. And it's kind of paradoxical. Like the form of entertainment is getting shorter and shorter and shorter. So you're like a seven-second, you know, advertising company. We do most of the spots that we release, like 15-second spots, six-second spots for social, the ones most people see.

[2:25:46] form. [2:25:47] which is like long form discussions that are whatever, two hours long. And the amazing thing to me is, you know, in a world where it seems like you can't get people to pay attention more than, you know, a few seconds. [2:25:59] There's a kind of a hunger for that. So there's like this form and that's why these are getting more popular. Obviously, you have this massive audience and it's kind of flying in the face of the whole other trend. [2:26:29] and nuance and where there's like a back and forth. They're just much more selective about who they're willing to kind of [2:26:37] give that sort of voice to in their life. It's also the voice of the public, too, because when people start talking about things online and things go viral online and people just start saying how great they love the film or how great this album is or something like that, it just takes off organically now. And that has more weight than anything. If you feel like somebody else who obviously has no dog in the fight is going, hey, this is great, you should see it, I'm the same thing. If I hear somebody tell me, like, you know, who I respect, yeah, you got to see that thing. [2:27:06] That means more to me than anything, right? Because I believe that. And so if the closer you can get to that, which is why I think the act of, A, like telling the same, you know, like telling the same story about you should go see the movie to a bunch of people with a certain like limited reach. It's just not that efficient. But you have to because it's like, well, we sat down with our own Inatricious Anaka and talked about the movie, you know, and you kind of do that ostensibly because it means a little bit more in that market.

[2:27:36] But I think ultimately it's like more and more people realize they're being sold to, see through the fucking act and this sort of bullshit. They recognize that, you know, you go out and sell every movie. You know what I mean? The good and the bad. And then we got to decide, well, which one – and who can you count on? [2:27:52] Mostly going to be that like the word of mouth, your friend. And now you can see that person in your media experience, you know. [2:27:58] Yeah, and I think it's also... [2:28:00] We know that when you're sitting down with extra or this thing, like that's just their job to sit down with people. They're not doing it because they want to. Right. You know, it's like they got told. Go talk to that. Exactly. And we got told. Go talk to them. So they go do the ritual. Yeah. And they say the thing they say and we say the thing we say. [2:28:19] And everyone goes home and says, we did our job. That's the benefit of an independent podcast is that like with me, I don't talk to anybody I don't want to talk to. It's just like I literally do the whole thing on my phone. I go, oh, yeah, that sounds cool. And that's it. But like that, I think, means a lot. At least this person is making this choice. And I've listened to it a bunch. And I actually find myself agreeing with it a lot of the time. So, all right, I'll give it a shot. Yeah. [2:28:42] I think also like this format, like at least I know why it – [2:28:47] Why I started listening to podcasts was because – [2:28:50] in the world, like the divisive kind, the way everybody was talking, these sound bites and all this shit. And it was just like the ability to just listen to human beings talk, [2:29:02] often who had different points of view, but like [2:29:06] had a civil conversation. Yeah. It was like,

[2:29:09] was such a welcome thing, you know, given the kind of the hysterical [2:29:14] kind of, you know, frenzy of divisiveness that's kind of, it just feels, it's just like, [2:29:22] You know, it's like if I open my phone and look at the news, I think it's like, fuck. Yeah. It's like put it down. It's just – it's like I feel my cortisol level go up. And to actually hear people, listen to people I know I don't agree with, but listen to them and just – [2:29:38] Think about it. You know what I mean? I mean, approach life with a little bit of humility. [2:29:42] Hold on to what you believe, obviously, but keep listening. It's also there's not a lot of opportunities in the real world to have long conversations with people. So people are kind of starving for that. I know. Isn't it funny that this has become the shared cultural, like, we'll listen to that podcast and then actually experience that. And also, why don't people trust the media? Well, because the media doesn't do that because they compress it and because the truth, it's money. [2:30:12] idea that like, well, if you simplify it or you position it one way or you engender outrage, that's simple, or just pure one-sided ideas that are simple. But the news used to be, the idea was, look, here's the FCC. We're going to let these networks broadcast their shows and make money on it. But here's the deal. You've got to give an hour of that and lose money on that hour to tell the news and try to tell it objectively. Yeah. [2:30:38] Then it started to be, no, you've got to make money for that hour, too. And if you're going to make money, that's a different incentive than tell the truth or reporters or any of those things. And people try to hybridize them. But at the end of the day, you're a more successful reporter if more people watch you because advertisers pay more. And then they're doing the same thing, looking at their data, what are people watching, what kinds of stories.

[2:31:01] And I think this is simple answers because you're just making it into a profit game. Those incentives are not aligned with just trying to get down to like even reporting basic. [2:31:11] Facts. Yeah, it was a weird time. It's like we have more access to information than ever before, but so much of it is just horseshit. [2:31:19] You know, it's hard to stay balanced. Yeah. And I think that's why it's good to, like, listen to people just talk. Yeah. And then you recognize, like, the flaws in their thinking. You feel ego. You feel deception, bullshit. It's true. People will reveal themselves. We actually don't need that many editorialists to be constantly telling us what to think and how to think. Because people actually have pretty good instincts. You know, if someone's bullshitting, you'll eventually kind of hang themselves. Like you said, you'll get that vibe. [2:31:49] Yeah. [2:31:49] After a while, he kind of started repeating his shtick, and I kind of didn't really talk about what I was wondering about. And you form your own – that's like forming your own judgment. Pete Buttigieg actually talked about that being dangerous on podcasts. He's like, because you go on there and you have your points, but you'll get revealed over the course of a few hours. Like you can only stick to these lines. Yeah, you can only be talking points and bullshit. And then what happens is people just – like there was an art to like look at how great that communicator is. [2:32:19] a message and they do their points. Okay, 30 seconds, 60 seconds. But any longer than that, it just starts to look like a fucking robot on, you know. And like I said, what we need to follow through with, you know, like, yeah, I saw you do the same hand gesture and the same bit with that, but, you know. Sometimes you find out they're full of shit just by having them talk about other things.

[2:32:38] You know, like, tell me, do you like cooking? You know, like, and then you just see like some concocted. They're thinking, what makes me look good about cooking? Exactly. Well, I'll tell you what, because I have a focus group say, that's exactly it. Do I cook or do I not? Does that make me feminine or does it make me open to cultural? Yeah. What do you like to cook, man? I don't cook. [2:33:08] opinions that they don't have enough time to formulate their own they're just so concerned with how people are going to perceive everything you say that you're like handcuffed you're like terrified to misspeak right right i think that in general is a real fucking danger i mean you were talking the other day we were saying about like one of the benefits of getting older and doing this for a long time is you realize like nobody really gives a shit as much about you as [2:33:38] He's thinking like this is really important and then you realize no one fucking cares. I'm like, I'm going to come off. What's going to be? No one actually cares. It's not that big a deal. [2:33:45] Most people are mostly worried about themselves and their life. Yeah. Yeah, there's this illusion that they pay a passing moment of attention or it's in some story. It's like you're fucking staring at it because it's about you. Right. You know, you said that about me. [2:33:59] Nobody else really fucks. Nobody cares. Yeah. And if they do, they're usually fucked up. Like something's wrong. Why are you concentrating on this other person's life? That's right. Did he matter? You're probably trying to ignore your own bullshit. Right. Yeah. Well, listen, man. Your movie's fucking awesome. I've loved so much of your films over the years. So it's been really cool to be able to have you guys in here and talk about this. It's been great. It's been fun. Thanks for having us. Thank you very much. Two very normal, nice movie stars.

[2:34:24] You guys are cool as fuck. Give us a couple more hours. Yeah, exactly. I enjoyed it. [2:34:29] enjoyed the rip it's fucking great and uh everybody go see it it's great i loved it thank you thanks for being here all right bye everybody [2:34:50] This episode is brought to you by Visible. How many of you are currently listening to this podcast on your phone? If you are chronically online, like most of us are these days, your wireless network should be too. With Visible, you get unlimited 5G and unlimited hotspot, all powered by Verizon's 5G network. The perks of big wireless for half the cost. [2:35:20] wireless designed to keep you connected and no contract holding you back. Switch today at visible.com plan. Start at just $25 a month or get our premium visible plus pro plan and save $10 on your first month. When you use promo code Rogan and exclusive offer for podcast listeners. [2:35:44] This episode is brought to you by the farmer's dog. Here's a fun fact. Research shows that dogs who maintain a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer on average than dogs who are overweight.

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