#2425 - Ethan Hawke

[00:01] Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out! The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day! [00:12] Nice to meet you. Great to meet you, man. It's weird when you've seen someone in so many fucking movies and then you meet him in real life. Like, okay, just a regular person, right there. Yeah, staring me in the face. Right there. He just took a leak, yeah. [00:30] fucking banger movies, man. It's like you've had an incredible career. Yeah. Pull that sucker. Yeah. Pull it towards me. Yeah. Very good. Yeah. It's been a long, strange trip. [00:42] It's been a wild one, huh? Yeah. Yeah. [00:44] when did you start acting? How old were you? All right. So I'm like 12 years old. I don't have a winter sport. My mother doesn't know what to do with me. And, uh, [00:57] my next door neighbor, he lived like four houses down, he took an acting class at the Paul Robeson Center of Performing Arts. And so my mother signed me up so that [01:07] I could get picked up by his mom, you know, taken to acting class in the winter and get dropped off, you know, and be at home. [01:15] And I went there, and this head of a local theater company came by to teach in. [01:21] Improv Seminar. [01:23] kind of thing i'm 12 years old right and afterwards in the parking lot he said um hey you want to be in a play i said what do you mean he says i got a part of a guy who's a knight he gets to you get to have a sword and i said well i have any lines he said you'll have one line i said all right cool and i asked my mom and she said do i have to pay you know and i said i don't think so i think they're going to pay me so i went and i did this play and it was george bernard shaw's st joan at

[01:53] - That was a real play. - Yeah, it was a proper play. And it was an incredible, [01:58] experience, to be honest with you, because my parents... [02:03] hated their jobs. They would go to work and their life happened on the periphery of their employment. My mom would take the train to New York and so she wouldn't get home until 7.30, something she would leave. [02:15] at dawn and um [02:18] Issues is miserable. [02:20] at work, I mean. And I went to this rehearsal and everyone was having, they were talking about whether or not [02:27] God existed. They were talking about what they believed in. They would dress up in these crazy outfits. And then we did the play and they got a standing ovation. And it was so much fun. And it was the first time I was like, you could do this for a living. You know, a lot of the actors aren't people you've heard of or anything like that, but they were real actors and they loved their job. And the rehearsal room was so kind of thrilling, watching them figure out where people should stand and what was important and what was the scene about and what was the theme of the [02:57] and how could this scene fit in with the larger context? And... [03:02] And I just decided that's what I wanted to do. [03:06] A lot of kids want to act, so that doesn't mean very much, but I... [03:09] Through this other friend of mine, I started hearing about open casting calls in New York. And I asked my mom if I could go on some of these big auditions. And again, she said, does it? [03:19] Is it going to cost me any money? So if I paid for my own train fare, I could go to these auditions. So I took some Polaroids and –

[03:28] went on a few of these big auditions and I got one of them. [03:31] And it was for this big – in 1984, it was a $30 million movie directed by the guy who had just done Gremlins, right? Joe Dante. And I thought I was a made man. I mean it was just – it was – [03:45] It was absolutely incredible. [03:47] To be sucked out of suburban. [03:50] America and brought to LA. My first scene partner was River Phoenix and all of a sudden I'm in LA and I [03:57] You know, my mom couldn't quit her job or anything, so my mom had a really turbulent relationship with her mother. But her mother and she didn't really know each other, and so her mother said she'd be my guardian. And my mom designed this as a way to maybe have a family healing, but my grandmother was... [04:16] A piece of work. And we lived together in Koreatown. That's what they called it. And it was wild. And I remember we drove into Paramount Studios. You can picture the image from The Godfather and you had the big gates. And my grandmother had always wanted to be a... [04:35] Movie star. [04:36] Wow. You know, and she was from here. She's from Austin, Texas. Well, really Fort Worth, but she would talk about going to see Gone with the Wind at the Paramount here in Austin. She would watch Gone with the Wind three times a week. [04:50] and she had dreamed of being a movie star. And I remember we were in a big van driving me to set the first day, and we went through the gates of Paramount opening up, and she was smoking an Eve cigarette in the van, of course. It's 1984, and she's just like, my first time in Hollywood as a fucking guardian. And so the whole child actor thing was a trip.

[05:20] drama involved in that five was to complete that story. [05:24] But I finished it. The movie was a big turkey. How old were you at the time? 14. River and I were both 14. [05:34] But see, we looked so young in that picture, right? But you've got to understand... [05:38] You know when you're that age you think you're dying to be 18 dying to be 16. We went off River and I [05:46] stole a pack of Camel cigarettes because we both wanted to be like James Dean. [05:52] And we had a... [05:54] We had a lot of fun. That's the truth. But the movie came out, and I remember River and I... [05:59] going to the bathroom at the premiere and, um, [06:04] We'd grown a lot. [06:05] from the time we shot the movie to the time it came out. And nobody in the bathroom really recognized us. And they were all talking about what a turkey the movie was, how terrible it was. And I remember just looking in the eyes and like, it wasn't the narrative we thought, [06:19] We'd bought into the dream that we were going to be... [06:23] whatever teen icon we were thinking of at the time. And, um... [06:29] And it died a quick and salty death, my dream and [06:32] I went back to high school and put away my dream of being an actor. It seemed like it was this isolated, almost like... [06:42] Choose Your Own Adventure book or something, where I... [06:44] see what Hollywood was like but then have it [06:49] denied and it kind of like putting your hand in a flame.

[06:52] was not a good feeling when it was over. [06:56] Then, you know, four years or so went by and I graduated high school and I was off of college and I heard about these auditions from a movie called Dead Poets Society and I hated college. I was miserable and I thought, oh, my God. [07:12] I'll take the bus in and I'll go on one of these open casting calls again. And... [07:18] And if I get the part, this is what I decided. If I get the part, I'll do that. If I don't get the part, I'll join the Merchant Marines and be like Jack London. That was my fantasy at the time. I remember I remember calling my sister and saying, all right, there's seven parts. This is how dumb I was. I was like, there's seven parts. If I don't get one of those, I must suck, you know. So it's not true at all. But I ended up getting one of them. And and I dropped out of college and that. [07:45] the success of Dead Poets Society sent me... [07:48] you know, it was like a trajectory of, it shot me down a different [07:53] course of water than I was on before. It's probably a much better path than the first film being successful and you become a child star. [08:02] tell you how grateful I am for that first experience. First of all, if for no other reason than [08:09] In the success of Dead Poets Society, I didn't take it seriously at all. I didn't even realize that the movie was successful until a couple years later because I had so braced myself for failure. Let's talk about Service Titan, the AI for the trades. The trades are the backbone of this country, and for the first time, they've got technology that actually matches the work. Over 10,000 contractors already use Service Titan software to run their businesses.

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[10:19] best friends something every dog owner wants the answer to that [10:24] is yes, obviously. So try the farmer's dog today and get 50% off your first box of fresh, healthy food. [10:32] Plus, get free shipping. Just go to thefarmersdog.com slash rogan. This offer is for new customers only. [10:41] This summer, the Cup is taking over the U.S., and only DraftKings has you covered every step of the way. Follow every group stage upset, every knockout round thriller, every stoppage time moment that flips the whole tournament. Sweat all the big matches you love in real time with a seamless experience built for the world's biggest stage. No matter where you're watching, you're always connected and in the game with one app. [11:11] to get 200 in rewards within 21 days. That's CodeRogan in partnership with DraftKings. The crown is yours. [11:37] perception of failure anyway because of the first experience? Yeah, because everybody's saying, oh, the movie's so great. I'm like, yeah, they said this last time. This doesn't mean anything, you know, and so... [11:47] it kind of taught me at a really young age about to ask yourself why you're doing something, you know, like, are you doing it for the result of what happens? Are you doing it to do it? And I,

[11:58] By coming back to acting a few years later, I was just fully braced for it not to go well, and it was still going to be worth it. [12:06] And so I think it gave me... [12:09] slight bit of ballast to handle [12:13] The success of Dead Polans. You went into it for the enjoyment of doing it rather than thinking you were going to be a star. I had no expectations. I was certain I wasn't going to be a star. [12:21] I was positive of it. I saw it as a way to make some money and maybe learn about it. [12:25] writing and learn about film and a way to get out of college. Now what happened is when I got there, I met all these other young men who were in love with acting. And that [12:36] I started watching movies with them and talking about movies with them and seeing the light in their eyes. And we'd go to set and there was Robin Williams. [12:45] You know, we had Peter Weir who had just directed Witness, one of my favorite movies. [12:49] movies of all time at that point. And he was a master. I mean, he was not a lightweight human being. He was a heavyweight human being. [12:56] And he would lead rehearsals and he would talk about [13:00] acting and performance in a way that I hadn't [13:03] Well, you know, I heard people talk about it that way when we were doing St. Joan. When I was doing the, like, he talked about it like we were making art. And like we were on a mission beyond art. [13:14] Success or failure. [13:17] It was an invitation to a lifestyle, a life commitment. And what I didn't realize at the time, that's what that movie's about, too. [13:25] So the movie itself is a guided meditation on carpe diem, right? It's a meditation on gather ye rosebuds while ye may. I sound my barbaric yawp over the rooftops of the world. This is the kind of stuff that I was...

[13:39] getting [13:39] inundated with in rehearsal. [13:43] And so that was... [13:45] I wouldn't have told you that on the day I wrapped Dead Poets Society that my life had changed. [13:52] Looking back, it had... It had planted the seeds. Yeah. I was thinking... [13:56] I've never met a person who became famous at 14 who came out of it okay. [14:02] I've yet to. I heard Jodie Foster School. I've never met anybody that became famous very young. I read every... [14:10] Interviews she does. [14:12] For exactly that reason. [14:14] I have, it's [14:17] It's so difficult. I tell parents all the time, like children acting is a wonderful thing. Put them in the school play. It's so good for them. Give them singing lessons. It's so good for them. Sing the church choir. It's so good for them. Um, [14:31] But to be a professional actor at a young age is... [14:35] This is... [14:37] It's dangerous and in extremely insidious ways that are very, very hard to perceive when it's happening. [14:43] That's a great way to put it. [14:44] Yeah, it's it. I think it completely impedes your developmental process. The way I liken to is like concrete. When you make concrete, there's a bunch of very specific ingredients. You put them with very specific mixture, like you have to have this amount of water, that amount of sand, this amount of rocks, all that. If it's off. [15:06] It's never fixed. You can't add water after it's cured.

[15:11] It's done. [15:12] It's fucked forever. This is bad concrete now. And this is what happens to a lot of young human beings that become famous, whether it's through acting or singing. Yeah, and it's not just fame. That analogy works for all walks of life, really. You know, if you have a really – something – [15:29] really traumatic happens in childhood. It's very hard to recover. It's a tremendous amount of work to recover. And I agree with you. Like, I think celebrity is like... [15:39] It's like a tiny drop of... [15:42] mercury or it's poison. [15:44] It's poison for your brain. Now, if you're mature... [15:47] You can handle it. [15:49] And if you get it in slow – like I got it in slow increments. Dead Poets Society happened. I had a little taste of fame. But I wasn't – nobody knew my name. I was – You could go to restaurants. Yeah, I was that kid from Dead Poets Society. Oh, look at him. Yeah, blah, blah, blah. And I got it in slow – I got to develop – what do you call it when you're – [16:07] You get a little bit of poise, like a resistance. Yeah, resistance to it. And it came so slowly for me. I even think about people – [16:17] I remember... [16:18] The weekend Pretty Woman came out. [16:21] Two days before, no one had ever heard of Julia Roberts. Two days afterwards, she's the most famous woman in America. I think that's a huge thing to absorb. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. [16:32] Um. [16:33] Thank you. [16:34] And I know that my personality couldn't have handled it. [16:37] I've worked... [16:39] hard to handle. [16:40] It is poorly or welly as I have, you know? Yeah. It's...

[16:45] I think you going back to school and living a normal life for five, six years or whatever it was before you left college. [16:54] I just think that's critical. That's the developmental process of the normal maturation of a person. When they go through adolescence, teenage years, into college, young adult, then you can kind of handle things. [17:09] You're also fortunate that, like you said, Dead Poets Society, not... [17:13] you know, you didn't get too huge from it. You just got some juice. A little bit of juice. A little bit of confidence. Yeah. You know, it's like something's happening. Something's happening. But then I had the years after that. [17:25] Though... [17:26] You know, my... [17:27] I have to give a shout out to my mom, who was just so devastated that I dropped out of college. I mean, she just couldn't stop crying about it, you know. And... [17:36] It filled me with... [17:40] desire to show her that I was taking responsibility for my own education, which is what I said I would do. And so I started a theater company and I worked really hard at, [17:51] a lot of different things, writing and reading and thinking, and mostly with this theater company where I met a lot of young people who were interested in what I was doing, but we weren't paid any money. And we worked our asses off and we built sets and we, you know, it was fun. I don't want to lie. We had a great time, but it was, uh, [18:11] a college experience. [18:13] that I gave myself through this theater company. And that changed me because I met a lot of people who were really excellent at what I do that weren't making a lot of money. Uh,

[18:22] I met a lot of people who loved it as much as I do, who weren't getting their picture taken, who weren't being told they were special. I knew how gifted they were. I could understand. I had a little bit of balance and a little bit of humility to go along with it. [18:36] the superficial elements of my chosen field. [18:39] Hmm... [18:41] Do you ever think about like what would have happened if that guy didn't invite you to do that play when you were 12? [18:48] It's kind of crazy how there's these pivotal moments in your life. You know, he just died. Nagel Jackson was his name. And he was a great theater director. [19:00] I don't know if you feel this way. I don't know what... [19:04] I have the sense often, and I know this sounds really dopey to say, but I sometimes have a sense of a guardian angel of some kind of, why did this guy talk to me in the parking lot? And why was he such a kind, decent human being? [19:18] Um... [19:18] Throughout my life. [19:20] I have had... [19:22] opportunities presented to me and I had [19:24] enough intuition and enough intelligence maybe to follow it. [19:29] but I do think about it all the time. [19:33] uh, [19:35] all the ways [19:37] that are imperceptible in the Tuesday and Wednesday and Thursday that they happen, but where your life is kind of guided. And it doesn't really feel by your own doing. [19:48] Yeah, I know it sounds wacky to say, but I believe it too. I mean, I don't publicly profess it as the definite reason why everything happens.

[19:57] There's a bunch of I think most people that have gotten anywhere in life. There's moments in their life like how did that happen? Like what? Why did this feel like it was a? [20:07] a destined path like why why was i compelled to try this what was the what was the thought behind that and what am i being guided and [20:18] Is fate real? [20:19] Thank you. [20:21] So [20:22] I wonder how other people feel, but I do think one of the keys... [20:29] I think that probably everybody... [20:33] has a path that is there for them and [20:37] The trick about knowing yourself, the value in taking time to like... [20:42] Be still with yourself. [20:43] and you listen to yourself, you know that there's an expression, the voice of our spirit is extremely gentle. [20:50] And it's difficult to hear it. It's quiet. Yeah. But if you can hear it, that thing, intuition, [20:58] that thing, the path, idea of a guardian angel, whatever. You can see what's happening around you if you're in touch with yourself. And if you're not in touch with yourself, you keep tripping on the same, you're not seeing... [21:10] the angles and the roads that might be available to you. So I do think that part of the trick – [21:19] It's taking time to actually get to know yourself so that... [21:23] you can see the light when it appears. [21:25] Because I bet you everybody has it.

[21:27] I bet they do too. [21:29] I bet there's also... [21:31] real factor in recognizing the misery of your mother's life what she was doing where she didn't [21:40] take these chances. She didn't, she had responsibility. [21:44] Yeah, but can I tell you something funny about that? Yeah. This type of the year when life ramps up and demands more of your energy, more work, more plans with family and friends, and holiday travel, all while it's getting darker and colder out, you can let it all drain your juice. Or you can get out ahead of it with AG1. AG1 is a daily health drink that can help you stay one scoop ahead of all the energy drains coming your way this season. [22:14] energy production without the crash. In fact, just shaking up one scoop of AG1 in water covers your multivitamin, your pre and probiotics, antioxidants, superfoods, and more. It's one simple step to start your day ahead of anything that might come your way. And that's why I've partnered with them for years. And when you need energy support, AG1 delivers with superfoods and with B vitamins that help convert nutrients into energy for vigor and vitality. Subscribe today to get this clinically [22:44] in the flavor of your choice, tropical citrus berry or original to help you stay warm. [22:50] One scoop ahead. AG1 has a special offer today. If you head to drinkag1.com slash Joe Rogan, you'll get the welcome kit, a morning person hat, a bottle of vitamin D3K2, and an AG1 flavor sampler for free with your first subscription. That's over $100 in free gifts. Just head over to drinkag1.com slash Joe Rogan or visit the link in the description to get started.

[23:20] when I was born, right? [23:23] So that's [23:24] That's tough. You don't really have a childhood, right? [23:29] In her mid-40s, [23:31] She took it. [23:32] She joined the Peace Corps in her mid-40s after, you know, once I was okay, and it was right around the time my oldest, Maya, was born. So you were a single child? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think I was a big... [23:46] part of her [23:48] on her brain a lot, worrying. It was a big... [23:52] is this kid going to be all right? Is this kid going to be all right? It makes a lot of noise in your head, you know, and, um, [23:58] And I was all right. And she looked around and... [24:03] I remember her saying that, you know, if an accident happened today, [24:07] when they do happen, and I died. [24:10] I would be... [24:11] extremely disappointed in myself. She was probably, I don't know, 46 or something when she said this, younger than I am now. And [24:19] And she said, I... [24:21] Don't want to be disappointed in my life. So she joined the Peace Corps, which she wasn't all that impressed with. But they sent her to Romania. And she fell in love with Romania. And she fell in love with... [24:34] the people there, and she got obsessed with... [24:38] the racism against the gypsy culture, um, [24:41] the Roma culture, I'm supposed to call it. And [24:46] It reminded her a lot of growing up here in the 60s and the racism she saw as a young girl. And she just decided to do something about it. She spent 25 years there and she got thousands of kids into school who wouldn't have gone to school. She just recently retired back to Fort Worth. And she's a different woman than the woman I grew up with, which is, I think, a remarkable story. I love both the women, the woman now and the woman I grew up with. I don't want to paint some portrait that she was miserable.

[25:16] was miserable at work. [25:18] She was not a miserable person to be with, the opposite. And she kept that fire... [25:24] in herself alive enough to when the window presented itself, she took it hard. I mean, she disappeared for a quarter of a century to Romania. It was a [25:34] young woman born in Fort Worth, right? And that's a wild thing to do. And she made a huge impact. And I'm extremely proud of her and proud of the work that she's done. And so is everybody who knows her. And now she's in Fort Worth doing her thing. And [25:50] has a different sense of herself. [25:52] Because she followed her own intuition and her own path. [25:56] It's just she had to deal with the responsibility of raising a child for a long time. Yeah. [26:02] Yeah, well... [26:04] that develops a different kind of character too. [26:08] you know, the... [26:09] character of a woman trying to raise a child. [26:12] And also a boy. You know, I have all daughters. You do? Yeah. I have three daughters and one boy, yeah. [26:19] All my friends who are boys are like, dude, it is so much harder. It's just that you're just trying to keep them from burning the house down. Yeah, it was a pain. Of course. It was a huge pain. And if you're a single child, you know. But she must have. [26:34] gotten some inspiration. [26:37] from your path, from your choices. [26:40] I wonder. You'd have to ask her. I think [26:45] She had in her own way went for it.

[26:47] because everybody told her not to have a baby, and she wanted to. [26:52] And she didn't want to run with the pack. [26:55] Now, she didn't, I think when you're 18, you don't understand the ramifications of the decision of having a child. Right. You know, how... [27:03] you know, permanent. You know, I remember she told me when Maya was born, well, congratulations, you now have something to worry about the rest of your life. [27:14] Yeah, I think it's a gift though. [27:17] I mean, I certainly think it changes you as a human being in life. [27:21] Thank you. [27:22] In my case, the most positive ways possible. [27:26] I could imagine [27:28] Being a single mother, though, it's a much more difficult situation. [27:33] position to be in. And there's a lot of pressure on women. [27:36] You know, sure. [27:39] You know, if it [27:41] If you work, you're a bad mother. If you're just a stay-at-home mom, you're not a good, strong woman. I mean, they're damned if they do. They're damned if they don't. That's the position they get put in. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. [27:54] All those experiences, when as an actor, I mean, one of the more fascinating things to me about watching people is how they can assume different identities. [28:05] And how critical is it to have... [28:08] had so many different people in your life and different life experiences to draw from, to try to understand things through their eyes. If you're a regular person running through, if you're a stockbroker, you're running through the world thinking like a stockbroker. You're not thinking, what would it be like to be a janitor? What is it like to be this guy who's trying to raise a family and he's got a drug dealer in his neighborhood that's causing problems and your life is this constant state of drama? Like you're drawing from all these different experiences. So having...

[28:38] had. [28:39] Thank you. [28:39] like, [28:40] I mean, I wouldn't say it's... [28:43] your life was complicated. [28:46] But it sounds like you have a really good mom. [28:49] but complicated. [28:50] Like, and not... [28:52] necessarily that stable in that way you're young and you're you know you're trying this thing out and you're going off to Hollywood and then you're coming back and going to college like having all these different bizarre interactions with people in life experience how much do you draw upon that when you're trying to like create a character well that's a really big question I'm not sure [29:12] - It is. - Well, so I have to break it into parts. - It started getting bigger as I was asking. - Yeah, yeah, 'cause it's kind of two parts. But the first part about [29:22] drawing on a character is [29:24] touching on my favorite aspect of my life and my job. Most people, if you're an actuary, you're an actuary. You think in numbers, you think in this, this is, and it's your job. You have to, you know, you, I have, um, [29:38] I got to play a World War II vet. I got taken out to basic training. I got to read World War II veterans' journals over and over again. I got to wear the clothes they wore. Um... [29:49] I was working on that movie for a few months, reading all kinds of books, watching documentaries about that. Then that movie's over. [29:56] Moving on. [29:58] get cast as an LA cop. [30:00] going to do ride-arounds through Los Angeles in the backseat of a cop car, right, when the crash unit thing was happening.

[30:13] And it's different than being a journalist and writing about it. I'm really trying to imagine being them. And I'm not looking at it from a judgmental point of view. I don't have an agenda about whether they're a good person or a bad person or whether this army sergeant should have made that decision or that one. I'm thinking, why did he make it? [30:33] why did you make it? why did you do that? I play a jazz musician a drug addict [30:38] I'm not sitting there judging Emma with a bad person. You know what I'm saying? Why do you do it? [30:44] You know, it's it's a painkiller. Why is he taking it? Where's this music come from? [30:48] Why is it so important to him? Why does he practice 12 hours a day? What is that about? [30:53] You know, all these characters are these individuals [30:59] Invitations... [31:01] to [31:03] Amen. [31:04] A, expand your own sense of what identity means. [31:08] Like what is who is Joe Rogan? Right. And who Joe Rogan is with his mom is a little different than he's watching the Super Bowl with his best friends. Who Joe Rogan is at 40 is different than he is at 20. We have inside of us so many aspects to ourselves. You know, when we're in love together. [31:27] you change. When you see your child for the first time, you change your biology, your chemicals start to shift a little bit. If you're in a violent situation, [31:37] You know, you're... [31:39] molecular structure alters a little bit. And you start to realize that that's not

[31:44] you and that's not you and that's not you. They're all you. [31:48] And that's what performing is like. [31:54] see society and see yourself and see a continuity that is really [31:59] kind of exciting. I've had [32:01] it. [32:03] if you don't get ruined by [32:06] Oh, breaking your arm, patting yourself on the back or something like that. I've met a bunch of older actors who've lived really interesting lives that I've learned. It's like I once had dinner with Vanessa Redgrave. [32:18] old English actors. She spent her life doing Shakespeare and Chekhov and Beckett and Tennessee Williams. She spent her life with some of the greatest minds of the last 50 years. [32:30] And she... [32:32] Carries that. [32:33] with her. [32:34] she's a powerfully intelligent, powerfully humble woman. And it's, [32:40] It's like... [32:42] um, [32:43] But being next to somebody you really admire, you know, a master craftsman, doesn't matter what the craft is when they when you take it to a high level, it has a lot to teach you. So anyway, that was a multi part question. The other thing that part of your question is, how did I stay balanced? And a lot of it had to do with my father, who. I. [33:03] has [33:04] He doesn't care about celebrity. [33:07] doesn't particularly think it's very interesting and not in a judgmental way, really cares about integrity and whether you're a good person and whether you tell the truth. And it doesn't,

[33:17] It's not that interesting to him how much money you make. That's not where his value system is placed on whether he's naturally suspicious of people who want too much attention. [33:28] I'm naturally suspicious of that in me. [33:30] which was good for me. [33:33] It's a good suspicion. It's a healthy suspicion. Yeah. He was very realistic. Yeah. [33:38] About the chances I had. Of making a profession out of this. That's not. [33:44] a bad thing. You know, everybody says, it's so great to tell people to follow your dreams, and it is important to follow your dreams. But it's also important to be realistic and have a plan and take care of yourself. And when you say you're going to do something to do it, [33:58] to show up when you're asked to tell the truth, all these things that... [34:03] Whenever things would start to go well, I had this person in my life that's very important to me who... [34:11] doesn't place a value on anything superficial. [34:14] And when we talked about why it's so hard to meet [34:18] young people... [34:20] in this profession who make it, what starts to happen, regardless of how good or not good your parents are or something, your circle... [34:28] can get infiltrated with a lot of people trying to make money off you. And that's dangerous. [34:36] Because they don't care about you. Yeah, that is an issue. There's an issue of people trying to get you to take work that you really shouldn't take just because they're going to get a percentage of it. It's going to be good for you in the next three years, but they don't have your long term. Right. What is going to be good for the 65-year-old version of you? Right. Like you said, yeah, if I could have decided my life, Explorers would have been a huge hit. It would have been E.T. big. And you know what? I wouldn't be here on this talk show today.

[35:05] I don't want to be in charge of my whole life in that way. Maybe you would, but it would be different. You'd be coming out of rehab. Oh, for sure. It would be a Charlie Sheen story. Yeah, dude, I'd be on Marriage 18. Who, by the way, was a fantastic guy to talk to. I bet he was. Yeah, I listened to it. It was fantastic. Wonderful guy, like a sweetheart of a guy, a guy who – [35:23] went through the exact opposite of what I'm saying is good for you. If you survive? [35:31] Anything is a learning tool. Right. I mean, you must have this. Some of the wisest people I know have been through [35:39] The 12-step program. Yes. And so addiction and misery can be an unbelievable teacher if you pull yourself out of it. If you survive. If you survive. It's not – I wouldn't wish it for my children. It's not a dare I want them to take. Oh, hey, one path to wisdom. Heroin. Yeah, yeah. A lot of my friends died from it, but a couple of them are really wise from it. Read a book, okay? Right. [36:09] I remember when I was about 24, starting to get successful, I met my friend Richard Linklater, and he said, [36:16] And we were hanging out in New York, and we met this really cool guy we really admired, fancy pants writer, really badass. You know, you kind of just, and we were smoking cigarettes. Well, Rick wasn't, of course, but we were shooting pool, and this guy said to me, you know what, you're almost interesting. He said to me, you know, what you got to do is you got to go down to Mexico and disappear for a couple of years, you know, live life a little bit.

[36:42] Then you'll be somebody. And the guy finally, when the night we were walking home with Rick, Rick said, let me tell you what you don't need to do. [36:50] What do you need to do? Read some William Burroughs. That might be a good idea. Read some Hunter S. Thompson. Skip the addiction path. You don't have to go to Mexico. You don't have to do it. You don't need to. That's not the path to wisdom. It has worked for a handful of people. [37:12] Foster much I'm I read her interviews because I admire because I know what she survived right but but she's wicked smart [37:19] Yes. You know, you don't want to place your bet that you're as smart as she is. [37:23] Yeah, she's smart and also wise. That's the odd thing. Someone who's in, like, how old was she in Taxi Driver? I don't know, 12. [37:33] 14 crazy crazy and it's a very bizarre movie for a young child to be sexualized and in this very weird psychotic movie but what she took from it was this great mentor and Martin Scorsese and she kind of understood she was making art that's where the wisdom comes in she's just naturally precociously wise that way that she didn't get hung up on the [37:57] the seedy aspects the sexuality aspects of it [38:04] She got hung up on, who is this guy Martin Scorsese? What is he doing? What is this movie saying? How could I be a part of that? This episode is brought to you by Traeger Grills. If you enjoy food, and I mean really good food, Traeger is a game changer. This isn't just a grill. It's the ultimate way to cook outdoors, delivering unbeatable wood-fired flavor thanks to the all-natural hardwood pellets that fuel everything you grill, smoke, or bake. That's it.

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[40:04] Yeah, I don't know her either, but I do admire her when I hear her talk. Yeah, me too. And that's why I always bring her up as the lone example that I've ever come across of someone who's been through childhood stardom that seems to be like very well-encompassing. [40:16] put together. Yeah, and she's still really good at her job. Yeah. Right, right. She didn't become a caricature. That, to me, is really exciting. You know, see, if you're me, you're like... I look at Jeff Bridges a lot, too. See, like, when Dead Poets Society came out, I remember I went on this long talk with myself. I was like... [40:36] Like sunrise. [40:38] And I've been up all night. [40:40] It was New York. I was about 19 or something. I was just thinking about who had gone through this that I actually admire when I look at them and admire. And Jeff Bridges had starred in The Last Picture Show, which was one of my favorite movies, and he was amazing in it. And he just slowly... [40:57] got better. [40:58] and better. [40:59] and better. [41:00] and better. And I was like, all right, so it can be done. [41:05] You know, this, you know, he's. [41:07] He's got an amazing wife. He's really super into Buddhism. I started getting like, what is it? He's really into photography. Like he takes – I mean I don't know him either, right? So I'm just – I'm talking like a fan here. It's not – I don't know these people. But I watched him from afar. I was like, okay, this race can be won. [41:24] and I've always thought, I remember I was so happy, he won the Academy Award for True Grit, I guess it was, and I was like, damn, what a long, slow burn he had, and just keeps getting better, and more interesting, he comes out with these weird little books I love, and I read them, and he writes books? Yeah, he has this book with his,

[41:45] Like, here's a [41:46] mentor in Buddhism, and they kind of wrote a book together about the Tao of the dude or something like that. But it's actually, you know, I don't know if you've read the Tao of Willie. I love all these kind of – [41:58] To the left versions of – sometimes I find it hard to read the – I want to read what Willie thinks about the Dampada more than I want to read the Dampada myself. Yeah, there it is. [42:08] The Dude and the Zen Master. It's a great book, by the way. He has a mantra in it that I just love, which is row, row, row your boat gently down the stream. Merrily, merrily, merrily. Life is but a dream. And he talks about how valuable that song has been to him. I'm probably misquoting, but it meant a lot to me. And it's just like one step at a time. [42:30] One step at a time. Keep... [42:33] Keep a smile on your face. [42:34] Don't forget it's all a dream. It's a great mantra. It is, and it's always... [42:42] Great to have someone who has gone through it all and has come out fascinating, interesting, and wise. So you go, oh, it can be done. [42:52] Did you ever meet Chris Christopherson? No [42:56] He was cool. Yeah? Yeah. Well, I... My... [42:59] Secret fantasy is your job. I wrote a profile on Chris, I don't know, 15 years ago now for Rolling Stone magazine. And I made a documentary about Paul Newman and Joanne Woodward. And I just finished a documentary about Merle Haggard. And I really enjoy it.

[43:17] studying other people. But Chris... [43:21] Thank you. [43:22] You know, his... [43:24] his life stories. You know what I mean? He was in the military and then he gave up everything, became a songwriter and it [43:31] it's kind of like [43:32] Imagine if... [43:34] and [43:35] You know, the equivalent is like the height of his career. It's like imagining if... [43:42] Brad Pitt had also... [43:45] written a number one single for Amy Winehouse. You know what I mean? I mean, you know, he wrote me and Bobby McGee for Janis Joplin. He did? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Wow. And he was, you know, a helicopter pilot and he wrote songs for Johnny Cash. And he was acting in Sam Peckinpah movies. He was in Blade. Yeah, he was in Blade. But he was a real... [44:10] He's a Rhodes Scholar and a boxer. You would like this guy. He would be right up your alley. A real free thinker and didn't trap himself in any way of thinking and – [44:23] Really fought for individual rights. And he was a great, great guy. I got to interview him. And he actually starred in my first movie I directed, too. So I got to know him. What was that? [44:36] Don't necessarily recommend you watch it. You can if you want to. I learned a lot making it. I like it a lot. But I was learning, you know.

[44:48] I was learning a lot, but Chris... [44:50] Chris was in it, and he was amazing. [44:53] Yeah, having known people like that. [44:56] is so beneficial in your life that they, [45:00] They're not just like inspirational. It's like a mental fuel, a type of... [45:06] A type of nutrient almost. It's like having a person that you know exists, that's been through something, has come out amazing, and is so not tied down to anyone's specific identity, has varied interests, pursues them all with passion. Having mentors. Yes. [45:23] It's like, you know, how are you going to be a samurai if you don't know a samurai? Right. [45:27] You know, you got to see the way they tie their shoes. You got to see the way they make dinner. You don't just get to see the fancy sword play. That stuff is hard earned. And. [45:36] Thank you. [45:37] And so I'm not scared of that. [45:39] You know, you don't have to hero worship people. You don't have to turn them into deities. They're human beings. But when you get to experience and see that people like, oh... [45:51] You don't have to lie. [45:53] I knew a guy once who didn't lie. [45:56] You know, you don't have to back down when somebody says that. I watched a person not back. You can be a good parent. [46:02] You can have your children say, I love my dad. [46:06] It's not going to come easy. [46:08] But it can be done. And so I like heroes. [46:13] I have no, I like, I also like seeing older people. [46:18] Not the fixation on the 23-year-old James Dean.

[46:22] But a fixation on the 72-year-old Chris Christopherson. Pick whoever yours are. There's Muhammad Ali. I mean, there's so many amazing people that you can say like, wow, life was not always a picnic for them. How did they handle it? [46:39] and then you cannot be... [46:41] you know, [46:43] too upset when life's not a picnic for you. You can just ask yourself, how did you handle it? [46:47] Yeah, I don't think there's anything wrong with really appreciating people. That concern of hero worship is legitimate because I think there are some people that will take a person and change who they are and make them – [47:00] Not just extraordinary, but... [47:02] Not even human. Yeah, that's a mistake. It is a mistake, but it doesn't mean you can't love and deeply appreciate who they actually are, flaws and all. [47:11] Because that's what we all are. And when someone is extraordinary and they have gone through so much or they have expressed so much and they do resonate with you so much, that's a valuable person. And you should treat them like they're a valuable person. It's not necessarily hero worship. It's just appreciation. Yeah, like I'll tell you, I don't know why it just flashed through my brain. And when I was making this film, Chelsea Wallace, you have to understand like digital video, it just came out. This movie, The Celebration, this Danish film, amazing movie. Thomas Vinterberg directed it. [47:41] And it just kind of changed the rules. [47:43] It was cheap. Like movies were always so expensive to make. And now you could just – I was like, all right. I made this movie for $100,000 in 2000. And I was like, all right. We're just going to play with this new camera. And I talked Chris Christopherson into being – he was my hero. And he agreed to do it. I couldn't believe it.

[48:01] He shows up on the set, and I had this elaborate shot I had planned. I'd found this apartment. That was amazing. I hope this isn't boring, but I think it's a funny story. So it's my first day with Chris, and I'm really trying to impress him. I've ripped this shot off from this French film I've seen. It's amazing. You're going to come in. [48:20] His character orders a bottle of whiskey, and the guy delivers a bottle of whiskey to the room. And in my idea, in this apartment, you could walk from the living room into the bedroom. [48:30] and from the bedroom. [48:31] to the bathroom and then out of the bathroom into the kitchen and the kitchen opened back up into the living room it was one of those new york city square apartments in the chelsea hotel right and i showed him this path i wanted to take and he was going to turn on the lights in this room and he was going to put on a cowboy hat while he's talking on the phone he's going to look in the mirror and point thing he's going to walk in the bathroom and flick that light on and then slam the mirror shut and then walk out and then sit down in the kitchen right where he was pop open the whiskey and pour [49:01] And he looks at me and he goes, [49:03] are you an alcoholic? [49:07] And I was like, uh... [49:10] No, no, not really, no. He goes, "I'm an alcoholic." I said, "Oh, okay." His character's name was Buddy. [49:17] Bud's an alcoholic. [49:19] I'm like, yeah. He goes, so you mean to tell me I order a bottle of whiskey? I'm about to fall off the wagon, and I don't open the fucker until I walk through this room, turn on a light, try on a cowboy hat, flip on a light, slam a mirror, and then sit down? I was like, well, I think it would be a great shot. And he's like, Ethan.

[49:40] There is no way in hell that I can remember all those lines and do all that that you're asking me. That shot will never work. So what I think is Bud's an alcoholic and he's going to get his bottle. He's going to open it. I'm going to sit down, say my monologue and drink my whiskey. [49:58] okay great let's do that there's also the terror of someone you deeply admire not liking your idea which is your your whole body just shrivels up you know you know you know you didn't see the guitar film i don't give a shit about the guitar film there's no way i'm gonna remember those lines [50:20] But then to finish it, I'll say when he wrapped the movie – [50:26] He was getting... [50:28] He said his goodbyes and everything. He was getting in the elevator to leave. And I ran out and I said to him, I said, hey, listen, you know, you've given so much this whole project. And I know that. But, you know, this whole crew's working for free. [50:38] right? [50:41] Could I... [50:42] beg you, would you come in and sing one song for us? [50:46] like [50:47] just for the crew for me is there any way you do that he said yeah you got a guitar I said I do I do so he sat down and he proceeded to tell this elaborate story that I'm sure he's told a thousand times but it was such a gift the room he sat and told a story about how he met Janice Joplin in the elevator this very building and we and she fucked me about four minutes later

[51:17] Rouge, waiting for a train. I was feeling bad as fate. Right? In the whole crew, everybody's crying. Everybody's so happy. I mean, he was just... [51:26] He was that giving. Um... [51:29] you know, to... [51:31] to everybody and understood what it would mean to this group of young artists, you know. And so, [51:37] But he wasn't perfect. [51:39] He was a real dude with real issues, and I loved him. [51:45] Thank you. [51:47] Yeah, he was... [51:49] I mean, you think about what he did and all the different songs that he performed and movies he was in and different things that he did. [51:57] That's an extraordinary life. [52:26] in Johnny Cash's front yard with a beer in one hand and the song in the other on his helicopter and said, damn it, you got to listen to my song. And I listened to it and went straight to number one. That's the story that [52:37] you know, cash with towel. And I asked Chris about it. He said, have you ever flown a such and such chopper? And I said, no, I haven't. He goes, there ain't no way in hell you can fly that thing with beer in one hand and a cassette in the other. That story, I don't know where he came up with that story. He's just trying to help out my career and make a legend out of me too. But, but no, no, I just, I sent it to him via airmail. For a person that watches movies, I've done a

[53:07] amount of acting, but [53:09] I'm not good at it. [53:10] For a person who watches movies, there's... [53:15] A thing that happens. [53:17] like a hypnosis. [53:19] When someone is a really good actor, [53:22] where they become that person. [53:25] And even though I know it's Ethan Hawke, I know it's fill-in-the-blank, Daniel Day-Lewis. I know who it is, but it's not them at this moment. They're so good that they've convinced me. [53:36] That they're this other person. [53:38] Thank you. [53:39] What is that? [53:41] Because there are moments where I see a good actor... [53:46] And I say, I don't believe them. [53:49] I think they're phoning it in. They're saying it the right way, but there's just... [53:55] Something in the air. There's a missing connection. [53:59] And it is the key to a great movie. The key to a great movie is everybody has to be in that fucking weird zone. That weird zone where you become... [54:10] a different person. [54:12] You... [54:14] Use the essential word. [54:16] in your first sentence, which is hypnosis. I've spent my life studying what you just talked about. [54:23] And when you're [54:25] acting with Denzel Washington, the power... [54:29] and strength and completeness [54:32] of his imagination. [54:34] is hypnotizing. [54:35] and it's an invitation to join him.

[54:38] in a great film. [54:40] is a collective imaginative experience when you watch the godfather you're not fucking thinking about al pacino or james connor you think about michael and sonny and tom and you know veto there i remember i watched the godfather i felt like i'd see those guys at the nick game tomorrow that's how we that's how much you're not thinking about the music you're not thinking about the [55:10] do it alone. [55:11] Right. But... [55:13] The best people I've worked with, it's like... [55:18] The easiest example to show, like, for anybody, when you go to a concert, every now and then it happens. [55:26] The performer hypnotizes you. [55:28] And you disappear. Yeah. You're inside those songs. Yeah. You know, you're not talking about those songs. You're not looking at them. You are inside the song. You're inside a dream. And bad acting for me is glib. Bad acting is commenting on the song. Bad acting is slightly... The feeling you're talking about is when somebody's slightly outside of it. It's very, very hard to do. And a lot of people... [55:56] Study it and work on it and voice and speech is a huge – I mean – [56:01] This stuff is way more interesting to me than it would be to our audience here today. But it's like all these elements of what creates hypnosis. If you were...

[56:13] If we're talking about the violin. [56:15] There are ways to practice the violin. [56:17] And I'm not going to make somebody a virtuoso, but I can, if I'm an expert violin, help you be better. And I think the same is true for acting. Acting is an art form. It's beautiful. It's some weird collage of where... [56:34] performance and writing and [56:39] All these elements, music, it's all a part of it. And when it's happening, it's all effortless. [56:46] And there's a lot of work you can do to inch it. [56:49] to being easier and to inch your scene partner into being easier and there are ways that they can help you and there's ways that they can ruin it. They can break the dream. [56:56] but when it's good, it is like diving into a dream. [57:01] And it's a feeling that I got. [57:05] for the first time when I was 18 years old. [57:08] acting in Dead Poets Society and it is a feeling it was it was [57:13] Seconds long. [57:15] I mean, it was not much... [57:17] but a feeling of disappearing. [57:19] And that's the irony I always feel about acting is that, you know, people think about actors and they see these pictures in the red carpet or something. They think that's what acting is. You know, what it really is, it's a life story. [57:30] It's completely antithetical to that of trying to disappear. [57:35] It feels like the celebration of the self, the celebration of the personality. But when you're doing a scene with Philip Seymour Hoffman,

[57:44] you know, um, [57:46] It's not Phil that's talking to you. [57:50] you know it's [57:51] It's... [57:53] It's like, you know, in the cartoon when the eyes go all squirrely. And then all of a sudden, I'm not me. [58:02] And if I've done my work right... [58:05] All of a sudden I'm saying what's coming out of my mouth is what I prepared. What's coming out of my pocket is what I prepared. The way I'm moving is what I'm prepared. And I'm not thinking about it. It's like watching a great athlete when a great athlete is... [58:20] makes a behind-the-back pass to the guy at the perfect second. He's not thinking, oh, I've got a cool idea. I'm going to throw it behind my back and catch him right as he's in stride. [58:29] It's years of practice that have let them know that I know where [58:33] He is. [58:34] Because where else would he be? [58:38] Things that are at first difficult become easy. And then you can even get better from there and get better from there. But that's the difference. People talk about. [58:48] You know, I love Daniel Day-Lewis too. I think he's kind of the... [58:51] high water mark of my [58:54] trade and you hear these stories about [58:58] what he does and people say, well, is that what you're supposed to do? And the thing about when people say method acting is they really don't fundamentally understand what the method is. The method is an invitation to find out for yourself what will unlock your imagination. And that might be going hungry for two weeks. That might be sleeping in a jail cell. It might be reading 25 books about it. It might be wearing a weird headpiece. It's not a rule.

[59:28] It's about how to unlock what's in here and bring it forward. [59:34] That's what the greats do. And find that zone. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. [59:39] Every football season, the same thing happens. The game somehow makes everyone really hungry. Quarterback scrambles, clearly a sign it's time for breakfast burritos. Turnovers, suddenly dessert at 2 p.m. doesn't sound so crazy. And wing formations, well, those can only mean buffalo wings, as if they're ever not in play. Even the goalposts start looking suspiciously like french fries. It's almost like football is sending the message to eat more food. [1:00:09] to satisfy with game day deals all season long from wings and pizza to chips and drinks even last minute grocery runs you'll find savings on all your favorites delivered straight to your door order now on uber eats and when you're watching a movie it does the exact same feeling like i'm there with you [1:00:30] whatever [1:00:32] you're experiencing when you are in that zone and you really are that person. [1:00:38] I'm not just saying, oh, he really is that person. I'm with you. [1:00:44] I'm with you in the moment. I feel your anxiety. The scene in the – goddammit, I forget the name of it. The film you did with Julia Roberts, the dystopian end of civilization movie. Yeah, exactly. Now that you said it, it went out of my head, too. It's a great movie. All the Teslas crash. Yeah, with Mahershala Ali and I. Leave the war behind. Leave the war behind. Thank you. That's embarrassing for me. I'm supposed to know. But when you said you could remember it, then all of a sudden it went out of my head. It's less embarrassing for me now that you didn't remember it. Because I was like, shit, I've got to remember the name.

[1:01:14] you go up to the guy's house and he pulls a gun on you. Yeah. [1:01:18] I'm right there with you. [1:01:20] I'm like, oh, shit. [1:01:21] It was a great scene. It was a Kevin Bacon, yeah. Phenomenal performance because... [1:01:27] I fucking believed you. I believed him. I believed you. [1:01:30] I believed it was happening. [1:01:32] And I was like... [1:01:33] Oh, shit. [1:01:34] It was, oh shit. It wasn't like, oh, these guys are acting. That scene is exactly what I'm talking about. Yeah. Because that's Mahershala Ali, Kevin Bacon, and myself in a very well-written scene. And those two guys... [1:01:47] are so easy to act with. [1:01:50] It is so easy to disappear with them. We did that scene over and over and over again, 15,000 different ways. I always loved it. [1:02:01] And... [1:02:03] You know, I had a temper tantrum. [1:02:06] that day on set. [1:02:11] Your body. [1:02:15] you... [1:02:17] You're winding your body up in such a way that it's like an emotional currency or something. You have this thing you're going to spend, but your body doesn't know it's fake. And if you do it right... [1:02:29] You... [1:02:30] Trick your body into believing that I'm begging for my child's life. [1:02:34] I'm not acting [1:02:35] I'm begging Kevin Bacon for my child's life. And he's going to decide whether or not my child gets to live. Right? And if you can get that... [1:02:43] that going.

[1:02:46] Shit starts to happen to you, right? Things you don't plan. And if Kevin is good, which he is, and Marshall is good, then they're doing the same thing. [1:02:56] If he gives me this thing that I need, he's putting his wife at risk. [1:03:02] He's not going to do it. [1:03:03] I don't care about your kid. [1:03:05] And then Mahershala's got his character in his head. And then all of a sudden, people are actually behaving. [1:03:11] They're not reciting lines. [1:03:13] They're not. It's like I did one of my earlier movies with a wolf, right? It was the best acting teacher I ever had, this wolf, because there was this movie called White Fang, right? Little Disney kids movie, right? [1:03:23] But it was a great teacher because I had to do these scenes with this half-breed wolf. And if you're the wolf... [1:03:31] All right, and we're doing a scene together. And what I'm really thinking about is the camera. [1:03:36] you know [1:03:37] The wolf turns around and looks at the camera. [1:03:40] Mmm. [1:03:41] You know, when you meet somebody, [1:03:44] And you know they're self-conscious, right? You know, why is she so tense? You don't. [1:03:49] You just, we're nonverbal. We can communicate with each other. Animals pick up on it instantly. If I'm actually talking to the dog. [1:03:57] the wolf, if I'm actually in, if I'm present. [1:04:00] with this animal, the animal interacts with me. [1:04:04] Especially a wolf Especially a wolf Yeah [1:04:10] Damn thing bit me that day. Did it really? Yeah. Hard? Yeah. [1:04:14] Why'd it bite you? [1:04:15] All right, this is one of the best days of filming in my life. No kidding. All right, which is it.

[1:04:21] Amazing animal trainer. Clint Rowe was his name. And we wanted to, it was a scene where I'm getting the wolf to trust me. [1:04:28] And [1:04:29] uh, [1:04:30] and it's going to eat out of my hand for the first time. And so Clint had this amazing idea. It's like, what if you could see even from that shot how far, that's a long lens, that thing. They put me on a little tiny island where two, you know, like some... [1:04:43] Two Rivers. [1:04:44] Fork. And so there's a little island of land right there. And so we put [1:04:49] I see this wolf surrounded by water, right? [1:04:55] And [1:04:56] This is flame. This isn't the animal that I knew really well. [1:05:01] But the way to get it to look like this, we have to not know each other. And I spent all day... [1:05:07] out there. [1:05:08] with this wolf. And whenever the camera started thinking I might have a chance of getting to pet him, they would start rolling. And I just talked to the wolf and I'd walk around and play. And I just had to try to be real with him. And he started to like me. It's not boring. And this, I'm getting close because he's starting to like me. We've been playing a lot. And he comes over and, okay, you'll see him bite me if you want. But amazing, amazing animal. But the point I'm [1:05:38] 11 hours. [1:05:40] with this starving wolf, right? Trying to get him to eat. Um, [1:05:47] Ready, ready, ready. [1:05:50] and

[1:05:54] Ouch! Okay? That wasn't that bad. It wasn't that bad. It wasn't bled, Joe. Did it really? Yeah. Sharp teeth. But it didn't look like he was trying to hurt you. No, no, he wasn't. That's what I mean. He wasn't. He was... [1:06:05] Um, [1:06:07] And so and by the end of the day, [1:06:09] Check this out, man. I mean, it was one of the most incredible experiences of my life. I know it's a corny kids movie or whatever, but... [1:06:17] But it's a real wolf and he doesn't know he's acting. Yeah, and he doesn't know he's acting. Yeah, right? And so I got to be real. And I mean, I wept when that dog died. [1:06:28] because [1:06:30] Thank you. [1:06:31] And I think about that scene... [1:06:33] when I'm doing anything. [1:06:37] you know, about being present. [1:06:39] If I'm trying to get the shot, the dog is not going to eat out of my hand. [1:06:44] If I actually want to say, hey, you can trust me. [1:06:47] Right. You know, I'd have to give up for hours. [1:06:51] You know, and just sit there, and we didn't have a phone. I'd just sit there and whittle or something and walk over there, toss rocks for a little bit until he got... [1:06:59] you know [1:07:00] It was such a fascinating experience. [1:07:02] Wow. Well, that's... [1:07:04] Yeah, you can't act. [1:07:06] And you never can. You never can. [1:07:11] And one of the things about... [1:07:14] you know, just a handful... [1:07:17] Laurie Metcalf comes to the line, Denzel Washington, Sally Hawkins, Laura Linney. There's a handful. I mean, I could – a bunch of them. Philip Seymour. There's a lot of great actors I've worked with in my life. And what's so wonderful about them is if you start acting –

[1:07:32] What are you doing? [1:07:33] It's just this kind of sense of, "Why?" Yeah. "Something smells weird." Right. Phil was the best at it. Because it wouldn't just be about you. Phil was amazing. You'd sit down to do a scene with him, and he'd be running it and stuff, and he'd just... [1:07:50] What is it? [1:07:52] Something smells bad. [1:07:54] What is it? [1:07:55] Is he with me? [1:07:57] I don't know, man. [1:07:59] Is the cup wrong? [1:08:01] Should I be sitting over there? [1:08:03] What smells wrong? [1:08:04] Something's fake. What is it? [1:08:07] What's fake? [1:08:08] Pace it up. [1:08:08] Let's try pacing it up. [1:08:10] he said no that's not it it's still bad [1:08:13] All right, let me try this. And then, boom, the next day we scream at you or something. [1:08:20] And everything would shift. [1:08:22] And [1:08:24] Thank you. [1:08:24] you know, the smell would change in the room. Yeah. And it was like, we're just shaking out what is self-conscious. Something is self-conscious here. Somebody's posing. Is it me? Is it you? Is it the fucking prop? Is the table wrong? I don't believe this scene. And what it means is, [1:08:40] When you're watching the movie, you, the paying audience, aren't going to be able to disappear. [1:08:45] Haven't you ever seen a movie sometime and you're like, why is she wearing that red jacket? Who thought that was a good idea? All you're thinking about is a red jacket. [1:08:54] It's just wrong. I don't know why it's wrong, but everybody knows it. [1:08:57] I get in the wrong note. I don't necessarily notice with clothes because I'm not very clothes conscious. But I do notice what you're saying about self-consciousness, and I don't understand what it is. It's like this –

[1:09:09] untouchable, unweighable, unmeasurable element that just exists. And we know it. We know it's real. Don't you feel it in here? [1:09:18] When somebody's being phony with you? Oh, yeah. Somebody has a big agenda about what they want to accomplish in your show or something like that. Oh, for sure. Especially political people or people that have some sort of a controversial technology that really probably should be regulated. [1:09:35] I think what we're going to be able to do is amazing things for humanity. And they get that tone in their voice. That Charlie Brown, wah, wah, wah voice. Well, it's just an air of bullshit. And I don't know what that is. [1:09:48] Thank you. [1:09:49] But it exists in acting. It certainly exists in comedy, too. I always say that when I watch a great comic on stage, they take me on a ride. I let them think for me. I'm sitting down. Think for me. You're thinking for me. And when someone's thinking for you, it's just like you're – [1:10:04] you're free to explore their mind. [1:10:07] And it's... [1:10:09] If they're self-conscious, you'll feel it. Like I see someone tense. Like I have a club and a comedy club in town. And when new people audition there or perform there, you fucking feel the nerves. You feel the nerves. And I'm always like, just give him a few minutes. Let him shake it out. Just let him shake that. It's so hard when so much is on the line to not be self-conscious, to be present. But you're smart to give him space. That's always what I feel. Just give me space. Give me space.

[1:10:39] I need space to be bad. And it's kind of like in basketball, you gotta touch the ball. Let me touch the ball. Let me make the list of it. Well, we've all been bad, so it doesn't mean he can't be good. When I see someone on stage and they're self-conscious and clunky, I'm like, this is a process. This is not like a rocket that when you screw in the last rivets, you're ready to light the fuse. I love watching an actor I admire be bad. [1:11:08] i love it i love it because it's it's not it's not a science right it's not a science sometimes you got to take a shot and sometimes you miss well then sometimes you're going through a divorce or you got a fucking drug problem or the director's an asshole or the yeah you know or they change the script the other day or or you hate the dp producer's a douchebag and but when i was i always tell my kids who are really interested in my profession or any young actors like i call that [1:11:38] is I don't give anybody... [1:11:42] I don't have permission to fail. [1:11:44] I don't care if you don't like the first AD. I don't care if you don't like... [1:11:48] this this [1:11:50] I cannot give them that ability. I still fail. I'm not saying that, but I don't want to seed it. [1:11:56] You know, then and but that takes time. I spent the first 15 years of my career saying I didn't do a good job because that guy was a jerk or I didn't do a good job because they changed the script or I didn't do a good job because of this, that and the other thing. And

[1:12:12] Then you see people like back to our hero thing, you know, and then you see people are really good. [1:12:17] And they don't, they don't, Robert De Niro doesn't give somebody the ability to screw up his workday. [1:12:22] They don't have that power. [1:12:24] Thank you. [1:12:24] He takes responsibility for that power. Is that a learned thing? [1:12:30] You could certainly learn some of it from watching other people. [1:12:35] But is that just an experience thing? I think it's – [1:12:38] It's the right manifestation of confidence, right? Young people have to fake confidence. They just have to. When you watch a young person in your club, they've got to fake it. Of course, they're going to have to burn through their nerves. They're going to have to. But once you have experience, you can have real confidence because you fought this battle before. [1:12:59] I know I have a certain – if I'm overwhelmed with – if my nervous system is at war with myself, I have a certain process I can – [1:13:08] Cut. [1:13:08] I've walked these woods before. [1:13:11] You know? [1:13:12] I know why I'm lost and I know what I need to do. And it doesn't mean I'll always work through it, but it... [1:13:21] I'm much more likely to than I was 20 years ago. [1:13:24] Yeah. [1:13:25] Um, [1:13:26] It's knowing that it's, [1:13:30] this process when you watch younger people do it. Do you ever, like, are you ever working with a young person and, [1:13:38] It's not... [1:13:39] clicking somehow and you're trying to figure out how to help them.

[1:13:43] Like, is there a thing you can say to them? [1:13:46] This episode is brought to you by Tecovas. All right, guys, if you want boots that are made right, you've got to check out Tecovas. Their Western boots are sturdy and clearly built to last, but really sharp and premium, too. You don't need to break them in either. They're comfortable straight out of the box and great boots for those summer concerts, weddings, work events, whatever. And they're versatile, too. You can wear them with jeans, dress them up or down, whatever you need. [1:14:16] All the classic leathers like cowhide and goat. But they've got all the exotics too for when you want to level up your look. [1:14:24] If you've been thinking about your next pair of boots or, hey, even your first pair, go check out Tecovas in-store or online at tecovas.com. That's T-E-C-O-V-A-S dot com. And right now, get 10% off at tecovas.com slash Rogan when you sign up for email and texts. This episode is brought to you by 8 Sleep. Okay, when it comes to sleep... [1:14:49] I've got to have the right temperature dialed in, depending on the time of year that might be ripping hot. I'm talking volcanic or igloo levels of iciness. The point is, I need the temperature to be just right so I can get deep sleep, the kind of sleep that drives real recovery. And luckily, 8 Sleep is all about giving you the best sleep possible.

[1:15:19] regulating the temperature on each side of the bed in real time. Why? So you and your partner can consistently hit your ideal deep restorative sleep range and wake up feeling truly refreshed and recovered. Use my code Rogan at 8sleep.com slash Rogan for up to $350 off the Pod 5 Ultra. The best part is that you get 30 days to try it at home and return it if you don't like it. [1:15:49] love your investment in better sleep. That's code Rogan at 8sleep.com slash Rogan. [1:15:57] Can you just do it by example only? [1:16:00] examples the best. [1:16:02] The best teacher's example. Unasked for advice is never heard from. The problem with young people is they don't often ask for advice. Right. They think they're trying so hard to pretend like they know everything that they feel like to ask advice. I kind of feel like that's a generalization, though, because I do know a lot of young people that do ask advice. All right. Well, one of my things is I cannot believe that. [1:16:23] The amount of young people who show up on set with their phone. [1:16:26] Oh, yeah. And what you were saying about hypnosis. Let me tell you what's a destroyer. [1:16:31] of collective imagination. [1:16:34] Is our phones. I was reading an article today, and I think it was psychology today, about a study that they've done recently on the impact of social media on cognitive function for children. And that it's just fucking nuking their brain. How old are your kids? I have a 15-year-old and a 17-year-old and a 28-year-old. So what is your – because –

[1:16:58] My wife and I go through this all the time. [1:17:00] They want. [1:17:02] It's so bad. [1:17:03] And you as a parent, you want them to be happy. And all their friends have Instagram. I know it destroys my brain. How could it not hurt theirs? I find my own powers of concentration are suffering. I'll be reading a book, which I used to do all the time. And every 10 pages, I take a break to look at my phone. What's happening? Why am I doing this? Right? You know what? So but they want it so bad. Yeah. And I want them to be. How do you handle that? [1:17:30] I do not put restrictions on my children's use of social media, but we do have discussions about it because I think it is an inexorable part of modern society. And I think there is a social ostracization that comes from eliminating social media, telling your kid they can't have a phone. I see it in other kids. I don't think that's the solution. My daughter is loving you. [1:18:00] it myself. Yes. Help me do that. That's what I believe. And you know, [1:18:04] when we were thinking about [1:18:06] So what restrictions we're going to do, we went on this walk with this really good friend of mine. Richard Linklater is an amazing person. And they tried to my daughters hit him up what he thinks. He said, I don't know. All I know is that the most important thing is to be your own best friend. [1:18:24] and that this is a slight obstacle to it. That boredom, boredom and sitting still with yourself, is a membrane you kind of have to pass through. And if you can make best friends with yourself, then your best friend is always with you. And so that's been my solution too, is to say, all right, let's all, there aren't limitations, but let's all sit down and look at, I'll show you how much I looked at it. How much did you look at it? How are we doing? Do you feel comfortable?

[1:18:54] Is it helping? Is it hurting? Because what you're a thousand percent right about is it's part of the social structure of their lives. Yeah. And to isolate them from it is to. [1:19:06] And you can't pretend that doesn't have negative side effects. Well, one of my children – well, both of my children, my young children, are very disciplined. And one of them just opted out, just decided she's not going to get on social media anymore. And she got this app – and this is – nobody forced her to do this. She got this app that locks you out, and it shows you how many days you've been off of Instagram, sort of incentivize you to stay off of it. [1:19:36] days or something like that. No Instagram, no nothing. But [1:19:40] Thank you. [1:19:41] It is addictive. [1:19:43] And but. [1:19:44] There's a lot of things in life that are addictive. And so the question is like how addictive is it? Like what is calling you to get nothing? Because that's what you get. You get nothing. You get these like tiny dopamine hits like staring at something for a few seconds like that's provocative or that's crazy. Like why is he saying that or why is that happening? Oh, my God, they're going to die. [1:20:14] every day like every day it's a guy got run over by a train car accidents gunshots south american assassinations it's just all every day it's all the worst things you could possibly find on the internet there's no good in that you know we do that to fuck with each other because it's kind of funny because he's a comedian too we just fuck with each other it's just like silly like oh boy like he sends me things and

[1:20:37] I send him things, but for the most part, I get nothing. [1:20:40] It's mostly nothing. Occasionally. I say it's like as a I make this excuse, like as a comic, oh, I need to be up on the zeitgeist, need to be paying attention to what people are paying attention to. [1:20:52] But you kind of get it anyway. You kind of get it anyway just through life, and it's better that way because then you only get the real significant things. You don't have to sift through everything. It's like you have a filter. Society acts as your filter to get you the most pertinent information. [1:21:09] But – [1:21:12] I think leading by example with kids is the best way with everything. My kids are both very disciplined. They get a lot of things done and they work really hard, which I'm very proud of. They're also really nice, which I'm also very proud of. I think that's like the hardest fucking thing to do is just be nice, to be a kind person. Yeah. [1:21:33] The worst thing for kindness is social media. Children... [1:21:38] in particular, are so fucking mean to each other on social media. They're so mean to each other in comments, and they talk about how one of their friends is getting bullied, and this person is doing this, and they're leaving comments on this, and from a rival high school, and this and that, and it's like... [1:21:54] But I also think that that process of understanding that there is this bizarre social interaction that's not real, that is a – [1:22:03] a part of life. [1:22:04] and that you have to develop a resilience to this. Getting tough is important. I think one of the things kids are experiencing now...

[1:22:12] is [1:22:13] what I experienced with the first blush of celebrity. I mean, you want to talk about negative comments, try being an actor. Everybody's got opinion about what a fake you are, what a phony you are, this sucks about you, this is dumb, this is what you're like. [1:22:33] Mm-hm. [1:22:34] unbelievable ridiculous amount of hours to my mother will send me a really nice review. [1:22:39] of something, something positive about me. [1:22:41] Right? I'll look at it and my brain goes, "What are the comments?" [1:22:46] Nasty. I mean just the nastiest things. You can't believe that some, but I don't want to, you know, give it too much time, but. [1:22:55] I actually think it really makes you stronger to realize, of course, people don't like you. [1:23:00] Over time, it will make you stronger. It's fine. They don't like you. Guess what? Half the people every party you went to didn't like you. OK, but they're also not thinking very much about you. They're thinking about themselves. And you start to realize that this is just people talking at the barbershop. People have been gossiping their whole throughout the history of mankind. Now you can read it if you want, but it's it has no. [1:23:24] Then a minute. [1:23:25] It's not real. And the sooner you learn that other people's opinions don't have to affect you, I think the better off you are. So in that way, it hurt me. I've seen it happen to actors, especially if you're doing stage. I'm sure with comics, when you're doing a play and you have to do it every night and you start reading –

[1:23:46] A lot of bad things that people say about you. [1:23:50] It is... [1:23:51] demolishing to your confidence. You know, I mean, I had this actor friend of mine, we shared a dressing room, and one day he came in, and he was great in the show, and he came in and just his whole energy was dark. I was like, you're already... [1:24:06] I went down the rabbit hole last night. [1:24:08] I just read what people are saying about me. [1:24:11] the internet [1:24:14] Everybody thinks I'm terrible in this play. And I'm like, they don't like your character. Yeah. [1:24:19] You know, like people are not so brilliant. You know, there's no geniuses out there chiming in on what a jerk you are at three in the morning. Right. OK. So you don't have to take it seriously. But, you know, it took him weeks to get his mojo back because he would step out on stage just imagining this chorus of hate. [1:24:40] I had the exact same conversation last night with a famous comedian friend of mine. Really? I won't say his name, but he went down a Reddit rabbit hole the other night. I don't do it anymore. [1:24:49] He goes, I fucked up and I went down this rabbit hole. Don't do it. Don't do it. No good comes from it. And he was like, they fucking hate me. I go, no, no, no. [1:24:57] They hate... [1:24:58] themselves. They hate everything. There's no like Michael Jordan's not leaving Reddit comments. You know what I'm saying? Like these aren't winners. These are fucking people that are not doing what they want to be doing. And they want to hate on everybody that's out there that's out there in the public eye. And some of it is valid.

[1:25:16] You know, the really the scary hate is when you get hate like from Quentin Tarantino where he's going off on that guy from. [1:25:24] That's a great lesson. It is actually. There's a great lesson. You know what? I don't think Paul Dano ever knew that so many people loved him. [1:25:33] Right. He's just out of nowhere. Yeah. Right, right. Out of nowhere. Paul Dano's just going about his life. He's got to wake up one morning and find out this director's just went off on him and saying these hateful things. But... [1:25:44] Anybody that knows Quentin knows he just talks, talks, talks, talks, talks, talks, right? Anybody that knows Paul knows he's a great world-class human being. And all this love for Paul is coming out, and it's a great lesson in that. You don't have to worry about the negativity that people send your way. You don't have to worry about it at all. Even from one of the greatest actors or one of the greatest directors of all time. Yeah, yeah, it's okay. And guess what? [1:26:06] I'm positive, positive. There are great directors that think I suck. I'm positive. Quentin Lee says, you know, he just says whatever comes into his mind. I remember once I met. [1:26:19] I met some director, I won't say his name, at a bar. It was a dive bar in New York. He's a really famous big shot director. He's sitting there. And he'd just seen my most recent movie. He's like, you know... [1:26:32] You were pretty good in that one. [1:26:34] that [1:26:35] And in the comment was the subtitle underneath it was I have hated you for 27 years. That's it was so clear, you know, hypnosis came through. Yeah. I mean, it was so clear. I said, wow, wow. Well, no wonder you've never offered me a movie. Directors have opinions, right? They have super strong opinions. What do they have a strong opinions about acting? Right. And, you know, he's talking about the movie he would have directed.

[1:27:05] They're talking about something else. Like you said about the thing, they're talking about themselves. Obviously, whenever anybody says something hateful, they're talking about themselves. [1:27:23] I'm so happy for him. Immediately. Every other comment everywhere. Somebody saying something great about Paul Dano. The majority, the vast majority of comments were really positive about him. And I went and rewatched the scene because of it. He was fucking great in it. Oh, he's a great actor. I thought he played a great, like that guy. It's not up for debate. It's, you know, it's not up for debate. I'm sure if you were alone drinking with Steven Spielberg, he'd shock you with some opinion. [1:27:53] or something like that. You know what I mean? I mean, we wouldn't be a good director if he wasn't opinionated. Of course. You know, it doesn't mean he's the truth. Of course. It's just the opening up your vulnerability to the masses. [1:28:10] in the most trivial and flippant ways of commenting, which is like leaving a comment on a YouTube video or something like that. It's just not wise. It's not good, especially if you actually let it get into your psyche and you take it in as real because we are designed to recognize threats, danger, danger. [1:28:30] negativity because it's important. Sorry to cut you off. That's the truth. The reason why it hurts me

[1:28:38] when it comes is exactly what you... I'm worried they're going to take my career away. I love what I do. If I do a big movie, [1:28:46] And I really work hard in the New York Times or the L.A. Times. It says he sucks. [1:28:51] I don't really care about that critic's opinion. [1:28:55] I care. Is this going to stop me from doing what I love? Because I know it's fragile. I know that [1:29:03] There are a million talented people. [1:29:05] Right. I know that. I know that I'm lucky. I know that I'm fortunate. So it is scary. It is a threat. [1:29:12] Right? I mean, but it is... [1:29:15] But you've got to get tough. I'm sorry I cut you off and I didn't really have a good point. No, no, it's fine. You know what I mean? Yeah. [1:29:21] Yeah, you do. And... [1:29:23] I mean, I don't want to be cruel, but I would also – this is how I feel. [1:29:27] Critics in particular, I do not think they want to be critics. And I feel like most people who become critics become critics because they don't have anything to contribute. [1:29:38] They're not. [1:29:39] great writers, or they never developed the ability to be a great writer, or they never pursued it, or whatever it is. They're not great actors. They're just criticizing. Criticizing from Quentin Tarantino is a very different thing. [1:29:54] than a criticism that comes from a person that's just a critic. [1:29:58] And I remember I had this [1:30:00] There was this moment when Fear Factor came out. Fear Factor is a fucking completely idiotic show. It's just, that's all it is, is just escapism. It's chaos. People doing stupid shit for money. This is crazy. This is nuts. Oh my God, are they really going to do this?

[1:30:16] And maybe you get something out of the end, like that guy pulled it out or she did it. She didn't want to do it. She faced the snakes. Yeah, but it's really usually like the end thing is like something physical. [1:30:26] Um... [1:30:27] Fear Factor came out right after 9/11. That's when it came out. And one of the criticisms was, do you really think America needs to be facing fear after we just experienced September 11th terrorist attack? And I got this question in an interview. And, you know, my my perspective on Fear Factor in the beginning was I'm only doing this because I think it's going to get canceled. I'm like, I'll get some material out of this. Mike, they're gonna stick dogs on people and make me animal dicks. [1:30:57] I'm in. I'm like, this is going to get canceled in like fucking three weeks, and I'm going to have a bit on how fucking stupid this show was. And it wound up doing like 168 episodes. It was ridiculous. [1:31:09] And... [1:31:09] I said and I got upset in this interview. I go, that's ridiculous. Like they were questioning me whether or not America needs to be scared after 9-11. I'm going, it's not fucking scary. And I'm like, what are you talking? You're making something into something it's not just so that you can write an article. This is nonsense. And I go, that kind of criticism is the type of criticism from a person where I'm not interested in your opinion. I don't think you're a particularly unique thinker and you're saying something that's. [1:31:38] Nonsense. It's nonsense. It's a stupid show. I'll tell you it's a stupid show and it's my fucking show. I don't care. It's just entertainment. That's all it is. And I think the people that write this are writing this in that way because you don't have anything to contribute. And I met that person at a party.

[1:31:56] There was one of those – they have like if you're on a television show, they have those NBC things where you go and it's like there's all these different reporters and all the actors from all the shows are there. And the guy was like, I got to tell you, that really pissed me off. I go, why? Because it's accurate? I go, what pissed you off? I go, you say horrible, hurtful things about all these different people and the course of their career is dependent upon your opinions to a certain extent. [1:32:26] about who this person is. And you just do it because you don't have anything else to contribute. And so when I said you don't have anything else to contribute, that hurt your feelings. That's why it pissed you off. It didn't piss you off because it wasn't accurate. [1:32:38] And we have this like weird moment. [1:32:41] You know, where he was like taking into consideration what I was saying. [1:32:44] And he was like, okay. And I go, I'm not a bad guy. I don't think you're a bad guy. But you have to realize there's weight to your words. And I've realized there's weight to my words. That's why I lashed out like that. I think this is stupid. I think this is stupid. [1:32:56] I'll tell you this show's stupid. [1:32:58] It's a stupid show. We're not making fucking Shakespeare in the park, bro. We're making people, like, line up a coffin filled with rats. It's retarded. But it's okay. It's okay to have dumb shit. It's okay to have burgers. It's okay to have, you know, filet mignon at a fine restaurant. Absolutely. All these things are okay. Like, but call it what it is. If you want to say it's a dumb show, I'm right there with you. But if you want to say, like, this is bad for America because America just got attacked by, and it's called fear fact. Like, shut up. Just shut up.

[1:33:28] And I just think he didn't like the fact that I was – That you were criticizing him? Yeah. Yeah, well – I was willing to do what he does to him without fear because I had already checked out of acting. I did five years on news radio and I decided I'm done acting. I was like, I don't want to do this anymore. I only did it for money in the first place. I never wanted to be an actor. The only reason why I ever got on a – I got on a sitcom with zero acting experience. Zero. I mean I had none. How did it go? [1:33:58] MTV, I did like a 10-minute set, and I got a development deal. I was like, "What?" Like, all of a sudden, they gave me money. I was poor my whole life. And then all of a sudden, I had $150,000. I'm like, "This is crazy. I have money?" Like, it was nuts. And my manager actually thought I had a gambling problem because I was spending so much money. [1:34:15] And he was like, what are you spending money on? I'm like eating lobster every night. I was so dumb. I thought I was just going to run out and then I go back to being poor again. But all of a sudden I'm on this show and I'm acting. And I realized at the end of five years, it was a wonderful job with an amazing, incredible group of talented people. But I don't want to do it again. It's not my thing. I don't like it. So when Fear Factor came up, I'm like, ooh, this is a way to make a lot of money without doing anything that's acting. Okay, I'll do it. And so – [1:34:45] Dealing with these people that I'd seen the impact of their words on all the people that I worked with. Like we used to sit around, you know, you have the table reads and then people would start reading Variety. And they'd start reading The Hollywood Reporter and all this different thing. And they would all be super bummed out. And I would call it the devil's rag. So I'd go there, oh, you guys are reading the devil's rag again? I'd go, fucking throw that away. It was like the early versions of don't read the comments. I'd go, you guys are reading the devil's rag. Don't fucking read that. Because then they would be all bummed out. Like, oh, they think we suck.

[1:35:15] No, they suck. We're trying to make a good sitcom. Let's just try harder. The best way to not make a good sitcom is to read shitty things about you. Definitely. You're going to go in and be really bummed out. [1:35:28] And... [1:35:28] This constant process of dealing with other people's opinions and especially negative opinions from people that you don't really like in the first place. They're not happy people. This episode is brought to you by Manscaped. Wondering what to get your dad on Father's Day? [1:35:46] The Beard and Dome Bundle from Manscaped is a really solid option. I've been using their Dome Shaver for a while now, and the thing I like about it is how easy it makes everything. You don't have to think about it. It just glides over your head, gets everything clean, no weird patches, no going over the same spot ten times. Honestly, it's so much better than anything. [1:36:06] any of the other brands I've tried. And then there's the Beard Hedger. It's got this zoom wheel with 20 different length settings that's built right in. So if you want to get your dad something he'll actually use, the Beard and Dome bundle for Manscaped is an easy pick. Get 15% off plus free shipping with the code ROGAN15 at manscaped.com. That's 15% off plus free shipping with code ROGAN15 at manscaped.com. [1:36:36] One thing you probably don't think about when you're planning the perfect summer getaway is protecting your home. But if disaster strikes, you want to be prepared. Even better, if it can be stopped before it happens. So check out SimpliSafe. They're the smarter option when it comes to home security because their systems help prevent and stop crime in real time before it starts. There's also no long-term contracts and no technician appointments.

[1:37:06] afternoon by yourself or even sooner. It's one of many reasons why millions of people continue to trust and use SimpliSafe. Everyone deserves to have peace of mind, which is why I'm happy to partner with SimpliSafe again and offer an exclusive discount. Right now, you can get 50% off your new system by visiting simplisafe.com slash Rogan. That's half off at simplisafe.com [1:37:36] poison for your mind. Well, and that's why we're talking the same thing with the internet is [1:37:42] figuring out a way to give it no space in your mind. Because people are going to do what they're going to do, and you're not in charge of them. That's what I feel like. [1:37:53] When you absorb too much of that hate and take it on yourself, you're forgetting that... [1:37:58] Somebody writes something hateful about somebody else, whether it's Quentin or whether it's this person or that person or whatever – [1:38:05] Most people hear it and think, wow, I wonder why he said that. What's wrong with him? They don't think something. So a lot of times I might take really personally something that somebody hateful writes about me, but it's not like the world believes it. Right. The world has people – [1:38:21] Michael Jordan, who's not writing comments, might come across that and think, God, that writer's an asshole. He's not thinking you're an asshole. If you're not saying something substantive, other people have a brain in their head and they know it. And so you can just – I feel you can just ignore it.

[1:38:39] Gained anything except perhaps the value of a thick skin from all that the value of a thick skin is important though And there's some there's some value to being hurt to taking it in and then realize it's dangerous to take it in and you must know how [1:38:55] Like with your show, I imagine, I don't really understand really how this works, but there's people who finance it and distribute it. There's people you have to work with, and they all have opinions. And like I'm doing this show right now, The Lowdown with FX, right? It's the first time I've ever done a television show, and I'm having a great experience with it. But – [1:39:15] You have to figure out, you're working with a lot of different people. You got FX has got their opinions about how the show is, and they're going to distribute it on Hulu, and they're owned by Disney, and everybody... [1:39:27] You have to learn how to take criticism. [1:39:30] Go, all right. And also how to stand up for yourself when... [1:39:35] You know your aim is true. And you have to be humble enough to tell the difference. Because anybody who thinks they're always right is an asshole. Right. Right? So sometimes you need their help. Yes. And you have things to be taught. Yeah. And sometimes you have to stand up for yourself and say, this is the kind of art I want to make. And I'm living and dying on this. But – [1:39:55] Actually – [1:39:57] what you're saying actually could help me do what I'm doing. And no, the same thing with directors. If you can't [1:40:03] when you were talking about advice for young people, [1:40:06] The first thing that popped in my head is...

[1:40:10] Something uh [1:40:12] One of my first directors said to me, which was, he said, I was 21, I was doing my first, I was making my Broadway debut, and this director said, what have you done? And I said, well, I did Explorers, you know, when I was a kid, and I did this movie, Dead Poets Society, and I acted in this school play. I played Tom in Glass Menagerie my senior year, and, you know, and this director looked at me and said... [1:40:34] So you've done nothing. [1:40:36] Thank you. [1:40:38] And I took offense at that. [1:40:41] You know, so I have done some things. He said, I need you to say. [1:40:45] I've done nothing. [1:40:48] I need you to say, I don't know. [1:40:51] And if you can say, I don't know. [1:40:54] I can teach you. [1:40:56] And if you can't say, I don't know. [1:40:59] then I really can't teach you. [1:41:01] And it was my 21 year old ego like was just buckling. You know, I do know what I do. I do know what I'm doing. And he said, you've never been on Broadway before. You've never done Chekhov before. [1:41:14] And you can't say, I don't know what I'm doing. [1:41:18] I said, I can't say that. I don't know what I'm doing. See, it's not that hard. Because if you can say that, I remember this like the first time going out surfing. Somebody's trying to teach me how to surf. I was like 16. I kept saying, I know how to do it. I know how to do it. I didn't know how to do it. [1:41:35] But I couldn't... [1:41:37] My ego couldn't buck. And if you can get to that Zen tabula rasa's no place, the beginner's mind. See, now at 55, I always say I don't know what I'm doing.

[1:41:48] It's so easy for me to say it. [1:41:50] It is so easy. One lifetime is not enough. [1:41:54] to know what you're doing. There's so many more rooms, there's so many more layers. [1:41:59] you know, and so that's [1:42:02] the [1:42:03] The advice I have for young people is to be humble and admit because you've done a handful of things doesn't mean you know what you're doing. [1:42:11] And even though I might have even had some success, I didn't know why it was successful. Right. [1:42:17] You know, that's a great the beginner's mind. [1:42:21] is a great point to start because it's, [1:42:25] Even if you're really good at something, like say you're a good piano player and you want to learn how to play tennis. [1:42:31] You start from a beginner's mind. [1:42:33] You have to. And if you go into that [1:42:36] tennis lesson going, do you know how fucking good I am at piano? [1:42:39] Like, don't talk to me like that. Like, no, you don't know how to play tennis. Let me show you how to play tennis. Like, everyone is a beginner at a thing they don't know. And to take on as many things as you don't know as possible to keep that beginner's mind is actually immensely beneficial for your ego, for your objectivity, for everything. For everything. With somebody like you who's had a lot of transitions in your life about different career paths and different things, that's always forcing you into a beginner's mind. [1:43:09] to myself, you know, like what keeps me excited is like, all right, God, I don't know. I'm going to write a graphic novel. I'm going to work with this guy, Greg Ruth. He's a brilliant illustrator. I'm going to make a graphic novel. Now, I've never done that before.

[1:43:21] I have no idea how a graphic novel works. I know I've loved them my whole life, but I've never made one. Greg has. [1:43:27] We work together. He teaches Sterling Harjo with the show The Lowdown. Boom. I've never done a show. He made Reservation Dogs. He's done this. I don't know this landscape, and I love that feeling because I don't lose all the value of the things I do know about. It's all there for me. It's all there for me. I don't have to announce it all for everybody. It's not going anywhere. But if I can orient myself into learning, I like making these documentaries because I'm not a professional documentarian. But what's weird about it is if I do that. [1:43:56] and I get in this real kind of open space, and then I come back to acting. [1:44:02] that [1:44:03] Beginner's mind [1:44:04] channel. [1:44:06] is open and I'm available to learn something from somebody else that maybe I might [1:44:11] because one of the things I thought when I was young is I thought there was a right way to be an actor. [1:44:15] And I was obsessed. [1:44:17] with somebody doing it wrong. [1:44:19] This director is a fucking moron, and he's ruining my work. And then slowly I really realized it's so obvious there isn't a right way to make art. [1:44:32] There are successful ways and unsuccessful ways, but I wanted everybody to be Peter Weir. [1:44:39] That's what I wanted. Peter Weir had made Dead Poets Society, and that's what Peter... [1:44:43] rehearsal is supposed to be like. That's what the set is supposed to be like. That's how you're supposed to talk to other people. I didn't know my mentor was a card carrying

[1:44:52] awesome human being and I was having unrealistic expectations about [1:44:57] Other people are on their path. They haven't done all that Peter's done. They don't know it all. And I just, it would anger me. [1:45:05] that they weren't... [1:45:06] And then if you can get in a kind of a more open mind, then you can really listen to people and absorb where they're at. [1:45:14] in their journey. And you're not going to change them. [1:45:18] You know, you're not this idea that, you know, especially in a film shoot, three, you're not going to change the way they think. You know, you've got to try to do your thing, lead by example. [1:45:28] Yeah. You know, and and [1:45:30] Try to let them not negatively impact you, but maybe you can be open and learn something from them. And that whole beginner's mindset is just immensely beneficial. [1:45:39] Like you were saying how you carry it over to your acting. I would recommend that with anybody who does anything. Find another thing that you're not good at at all. [1:45:48] and get into that because that will help you with the thing that you're good at. And even it's like I took [1:45:54] It happens so often that it's funny. [1:45:58] take my son out to teach him how to shoot, right? First skeet thing, you just blast it right out of the air. Second one, blast it right out of the air, right? You know, you teach somebody to shoot a bow or something. First ear they fly. [1:46:09] Hits the target. Then they don't hit the target again. [1:46:11] You know, you start thinking too much. You know, I hear, I don't know anything about golf, but I hear the same thing is true with golf. Young people are often great actors. It's adolescence in life that makes it harder to get back to that childlike place, you know? And so I think…

[1:46:29] I've even been talking to my wife a lot about I want to start trying to take piano lessons just to do something I've never done. Because I know it rattles my brain. Yes. And makes my brain see things differently. Take a new language on. Yes. [1:46:41] Learn how to play chess. Do something. Yeah. It's hugely beneficial to be a beginner. I think a person that only does one thing, there's something very valuable in that too. But do one thing, immerse yourself in that one thing and do it the best you can. It's true. It's true. The term kaizen, it's a Japanese term for refining something over and over and over and over again for decades until you absolutely have it perfected. [1:47:11] master a craft. [1:47:14] You have to apprentice three or four. [1:47:17] It's good for... I'm an actor. [1:47:20] And now I'm going to die an actor. And this is what I'm going to do. And I have met. [1:47:26] older actors who are amazing. [1:47:29] who I know I'm not as good as. And it kind of thrills me. [1:47:33] it [1:47:34] it thrills me. There's little nuances of conversation that I don't quite understand yet, but I know that they do. And I know that they're right. And I want to understand more deeply. And, [1:47:47] I just feel that [1:47:50] I don't know, I lost my train of thought about that. I don't know. My computer just shut down. I forgot what I was talking about. It's okay. I think more people need... I think the problem is when you're really good at something, you find identity in it. Oh, that's what I was saying. I know I want to excel at this one craft, but I know that when I direct something, when I write something, if I make a graphic novel, a documentary, I'm learning about things that are adjacent.

[1:48:19] to my specialty. And by doing that, when I go to set, [1:48:24] And I'm talking to a writer. I know how hard he worked in the script. I'm not going to willy-nilly change his lines because I'm not in the mood or I don't like the way my hair looks or something like that. I'm not going to do that. I have respect for what he did. And because I have that respect, I can offer him my thoughts. [1:48:43] Thank you. [1:48:43] And we can probably get involved in a really mutually beneficial conversation because I've directed. I don't look at some director and think, well, like I did when I was younger, he's stopping me. I'm thinking, I know this guy's sweat this. I know this guy picked this location for a reason. I know this guy has a tenuous relationship with a cinematographer. I know the producers are breathing down his neck. I know he's got a lot of headaches. I'm going to help him. [1:49:07] And I'm going to try to find an app. You know what I mean? So these ancillary, I do want to have a specialty. [1:49:14] But I do think learning the piano might help me be a better actor. Like, I don't know why. I don't know the logic behind it. I think in particular, in acting, that would be true because acting – [1:49:25] is you becoming someone else [1:49:29] who's [1:49:30] in life. [1:49:32] And life... [1:49:33] involves a lot of different aspects. There's a lot of different things that go on in a human being's mind. The more you can introduce to your mind, the more that would help you become a variety of different people that you're performing as. See, I mean, wouldn't it be phenomenal? It'd be very weird. But like, so you and I have been talking.

[1:49:52] and [1:49:53] I would venture to say... [1:49:55] we're doing pretty well three quarters of the time. [1:49:58] We're completely immersed... [1:50:00] in what we're talking about. [1:50:02] And then my brain, why my computer shut down is I start thinking about this actor that I love, Richard Easton. And I start thinking about how I'm still not as good as he is. And he's not even famous. And then I couldn't remember what I was going to say. And you're talking to me about your kids. There's no way your mind doesn't drift to something going on in your life. And mine does too. And I'm not. [1:50:22] And so that's what real life is like. And the actor's job is to figure out the text and the text to be so clear in there that then you can figure out all the other wavelengths. You know, when you're watching somebody great, there's all these other wavelengths that are happening. They have nothing – [1:50:39] It's not that they have nothing to do with the script, but it's like... [1:50:43] It's like the difference between a sketch and an oil painting. [1:50:46] You know, the script is kind of a beautiful sketch. And the actor's job, director's job, production designers, we're turning that into an oil painting. And – [1:50:55] So anyway, I'm... [1:50:57] I'm just saying, wouldn't it – [1:50:59] If I could put a subtitle under everything we're really thinking while we're talking, how different would it be? And how much more would I learn about you if I knew what your guys' relationship is really like? Does he get on your nerves? Do you hate it that he wears a black cap? Do you wish he'd wear the red one? Do you know – you know what I'm saying. There's so much about – when I'm in your space, so much I don't know about what's going on today and what you guys are doing later today or how you cut the show or what's important to you about the show.

[1:51:29] I'm talking about all the time because I'm trying to lock into the other person's brain. And sometimes I forget what I want to say because I'm trying to like – I'm trying to think like you. I'm trying to like completely be in the moment and think like you. That's what I try to do. [1:51:46] When I'm having a conversation with a person, I try to be as completely locked in as possible, so much so that sometimes I forget people's names that I know really well. I forget all kinds of things. That's cool. Because I'm not thinking about anything else other than what that person's thinking and saying. [1:52:04] and trying to like decipher it and trying to like, trying to like, you know, guide the conversation in some sort of an interesting way. But I, [1:52:14] I forget all kinds of things. I'll forget important people's phone numbers, birthdays. I don't remember anything. So many times I'll ask Jamie a question like, who is that fucking – what? [1:52:27] What is his fucking name? And then I can't believe I can't remember. It's because I'm not there. [1:52:32] I'm lost in what this person is saying. So I have to like sit down and open up my files and go, oh, there's all the information again. But I'm not there. So I can't do that. So I've got to go, let me go back to my desk and I'll open up my files and now I have my information. But when I'm talking to you, I'm not at my desk. [1:52:50] that's what it's like for me to [1:52:52] To have a great role. [1:52:54] My... [1:52:55] brain disappears into that other psyche. And I can kind of do some of the normal stuff of life, drive my kids to school and do some things. But this...

[1:53:09] Part of me is floating over here, imagining, was this the right way to, how should I wear the jacket? Would he drive a car? What kind of car would he drive? Is that the right car? Is that the right, like, you know, just my imagination when it's really cooking. [1:53:24] It takes me away. My favorite things about it is I don't think about my phone. I don't think about the emails I didn't return. I didn't think about whether I forgot so-and-so's birthday. For this period of time, this job is so important to me that I'm willing to say, [1:53:44] Nothing else matters. But I... [1:53:47] doing as good as I can in this moment. Obviously, it's going to matter again when I leave the dressing room and when I do this. Obviously, I'm trying to be a good adult and [1:53:57] father and husband and citizen and all that stuff. But [1:54:00] It gives me a space where everything else can disappear. Yeah. Everything else. Yeah. And that's what's so fun about a big... [1:54:09] big ensemble movies. Like, I don't... [1:54:12] People may like the movie or not like the movie, but I did this remake of Magnificent Seven, right? And when you have a big cast and everybody's in period costume, you know, and everybody's on their horse and your jacket's from 1876 and they're dead. [1:54:27] shirt is from, you know, from the Civil War or something like that. And it's all real. And there's these old taverns built and there's dogs on the set and horses peeing. And you know what I mean? It's all so real. And my life is gone.

[1:54:43] Yes. And I'm just goodnight Robichaux. Yeah. And, you know, and I've got to worry about how many bullets I have left in my thing. And, you know, and it's it you're it's a it's back to hypnosis and it's a wonderful relaxation. And that's the strange thing about it. [1:54:59] is it's like, you know when you're a kid, [1:55:02] And you first... [1:55:03] look at the stars or the ocean or something and you feel powerfully your own insignificance. And your intellectual brain would think that that would feel bad. [1:55:12] Oh, you're somebody told you, hey, you're insignificant. That feels bad. [1:55:16] But when you look at the stars, it feels great. [1:55:19] And it's the same feeling of like, why would disappearing feel so good? I did, when I was young, I did this play with Steve Zahn, great actor. Have you had Steve on your show? No. Oh, he's a genius, and he's so funny. We were doing a play together. [1:55:37] in [1:55:38] I would say to him, I said, tonight's show went really good. Do you think it went well? He goes, yeah, I thought it went really well. And then the next night I come back, tonight sucked, didn't it suck? He goes, I thought it went really well. You know, you always think it goes really well. He goes, I never remember. [1:55:58] And the truth is, he's so zen. [1:56:01] He's so in the moment, what you're talking about when you do comedy or when you do your interviews. He is so in, he's so present that he honestly doesn't remember. And that's the trick is he doesn't have this huge opinion. [1:56:12] Yeah. Because the opinion gets in your way all the time.

[1:56:15] Yes, it really can. [1:56:18] - Yeah, and I think the ultimate, [1:56:20] in the moment [1:56:21] for a person that doesn't have a craft or thing is staring at the stars. [1:56:26] Because you realize you are a part of everything. [1:56:29] And you are in this infinite soup of existence that... [1:56:35] all of your troubles and your, it seems so insignificant, in comparison to the vastness of what's in front of you. [1:56:43] And that lets your shoulders lighten up. Yeah. And then you can handle what you can handle. [1:56:48] I've talked about this before, but I'll tell you. When I was younger, when my oldest daughter was, I think she was only five or six, we went to the Keck Observatory. [1:56:58] in Hawaii. And I don't know if you've ever been there. It's on the Big Island. But they told us, it's like an hour and a half drive. They told us when you're driving up there, [1:57:08] you're going to go to the top and hopefully there won't be any clouds. So you get a clear vision of the sky. So as we're driving up, [1:57:17] It's all these fucking clouds. I'm like, oh, this sucks. It's going to suck. We're driving all this. We're not going to see any stars. We drive through the clouds. [1:57:25] Because it's really high. And you get up to the top and you're above the clouds. And we got out of the car and my fucking jaw dropped. It was nuts. It was the craziest image. And I've been there three times since. Never recreated it. There's always been cloud cover that's higher up. I just caught it the first time I went there at the absolute perfect. It changed my life. It changed my perspective on the universe itself. Because it felt like I was. It felt psychedelic.

[1:57:55] a ship. [1:57:56] Like a convertible spaceship and I was looking through the windshield and we were flying through the cosmos and there was an impossible amount of stars in the sky. There wasn't a spot in the sky that wasn't filled with stars. The Milky Way was clear as day. It was fucking bananas. That's what it looked like. You didn't feel like you were on a spaceship. [1:58:16] You are on one. You're on an organic spaceship. And you realized it. Yeah. Yeah. Look at that. That's it? Well, that's what it kind of looks like, but it's actually even more profound than that. But that is the Keck Observatory. You know, when I was telling you about… [1:58:29] White Fang, my experience with it. So I was out there [1:58:32] this is 1989 right I'm in Haines Alaska it's about 100 miles north of Juneau there's no internet um [1:58:40] The mail comes once a week on Monday. If it's bad weather, the mail doesn't come until the next week. I'm there for six months. I'm 19 years old. [1:58:51] There's nobody... [1:58:52] to talk to. I mean, there's no co-star. Wait, the only 19 year old there? Listen, the guy who was the production, you know, the production manager or whatever, he was hyper AA. [1:59:04] Right. And there's one bar in town. And he told the manager if I was seen in there, he would shut it down. There was nowhere else to go. What a dick. I was like, I told the guys, look, I'm not going to drink. I got it. Like the stuntmen are hanging in there. All the other actors are hanging out in there. And I had nothing to do because I couldn't go in the one bar.

[1:59:27] freaking bar, right? And for the first three months I was there, it was always dark, right? And then the second three months, it was always light. But anyway, [1:59:36] The point is, I went on this long walk and I... [1:59:40] I saw the roar of Borealis. [1:59:41] By myself. [1:59:43] And I'd see it night after night. [1:59:45] So I just see the sky rippling. And it was like what you're talking about. It was like, it actually made me laugh. [1:59:54] Wow. You know, it just seemed it was funny. It was like the cosmos was teasing you going, oh, you think all this is real? Yeah. I was like, I do. I do think it matters whether White Fang is a good movie. And then I just giggle, you know, and I was like, oh, you have no idea what's going on. [2:00:24] the time. I'm back there. [2:00:25] Wow. [2:00:27] I think we're being robbed of that. [2:00:29] Because of cities. [2:00:30] Light pollution has robbed us of what I think all of our ancestors always inherently observed. When nighttime came around, everybody realized, well, you're a part of the infinite cosmos, and there's magic to the universe, which is why there were so many people. [2:00:47] you know [2:00:48] hundreds if not thousands of years ago that had these whimsical tales and these ideas of the importance of life and existence when they're in the most brutal moments of history. They're in the most brutal moments of life, life or death, hunter-gatherers, warring tribes, but yet at night you're presented with this evil.

[2:01:11] impossible majesty of the cosmos above your head every night. Now, today, we have fucking social media. This is your sun. This is your star. You're staring at a stupid fucking screen. And when you look up, you just see nothing but blackness because there's all these city skyscrapers and all these streetlights. So why wouldn't you look at your phone? Exactly. It's blinded out the one thing that is like one of the most important humbling, like grounding experiences, peering at the cosmos. Isn't it weird? [2:01:41] in a bad mood when you're looking at the stars. It's so hard to be in a bad mood when you're riding a bicycle and you feel the wind. It's funny, it's such a simple little thing, a stupid little invention, this bicycle. But you get in, you ride around, it's very hard to stay in a bad mood if you spend two hours on a bicycle. And there's so many things like that that we rob ourselves of. You know, I don't know. [2:02:03] Even like I find when I'm in nature exercise, when I run outside and I'm running through the trees and I see a hawk and I see the wind blowing through and I pass a farm with sheep and I it's like. [2:02:18] I come back from a long run high and I feel like I like myself. Yeah. And in the city, I go to the gym. [2:02:27] And I got on one thing highlights of all my sports teams that I love and they're blinking up and down. And then I got the world is ending on all the news channels blinking up and down. And I got guys who are in better shape than me walking by and girls who are super hot walking by that I'm trying not to look at and be a good person. And I walk out of the damn gym and I hate myself. You know what I mean? I mean, I've got some exercise, but it wasn't I long for the country. But anyway.

[2:02:57] yeah doing it outside is that too much information no that's us that's me that's everybody and you know and the the thing is like the gym wants to keep you occupied because then you'll show up more often it won't be incredibly boring if you go to a dank dungeon of a gym with nothing on the walls other than a small mirror that's covered with other people's spit you know i think that's what we all like in rocky when he like goes goes out to the barn rocky four that's the one i'm [2:03:27] It's freezing out and it's just him and he's carrying the log. [2:03:32] Yeah, it's hilarious. Yeah, well, we like the idea. And I was going to bring that up earlier when you were talking about immersing yourself in a role and preparing for a thing. It's one of the more romantic things to me about fighting. Yeah. [2:03:45] When I know that this past weekend there was a big UFC... [2:03:50] when a fighter goes into a camp. [2:03:53] They go off somewhere. They leave their family behind often for like two months at a time. [2:03:58] And they just completely immerse themselves in preparation for this one thing that's going to happen. [2:04:08] distracts you, robs you away from the potential of that one person. [2:04:13] possible majestic performance, that one career-defining performance, which they're all chasing after. And for a championship-level fighter, it's like – [2:04:23] the immense pressure [2:04:26] And then – [2:04:27] This thing...

[2:04:28] This. [2:04:30] Yeah. [2:04:31] You call it romantic because it is kind of romantic. This romantic... [2:04:36] Task it's dedication. Yeah, excellent. Yeah, it's full dedication. Oh, complete Dedication the way that you're even talking about trying to do your interviews are trying to your comedy You're trying to be in but to have something so I mean I envy that when I read about fighters and the dedication I really Kind of long for that experience. Yeah, that idea of going away and I think there's something about I [2:05:00] - Thank you. [2:05:01] I've always, I don't know if you think this, but whenever I pass by a monastery... [2:05:06] the conventers and these people who are dedicated to their spiritual calling so completely that they've isolated out all the noise of life I'm like, I'm really glad they exist [2:05:19] I'm glad in the same way I feel about fighters. I feel like, I mean, with the fighters, I really envy it. Cause I, [2:05:25] We all would like [2:05:26] to test ourselves. [2:05:28] How much could I dedicate myself? How could I... [2:05:33] Could I go to the next level? How far can I go? And I think that, oh, just... [2:05:40] Singularity of focus. [2:05:42] It feels really good. And there is something... I think I love stories about fighters for just that. And the fact that it all rests on these X amount of minutes. Yeah. And chaos. Yeah. [2:05:56] What was it like?

[2:05:59] Was it like watching? Oh, fighting? Terrifying. [2:06:03] Yeah. Did you ever, would you ever get to a place of, would you ever get to a place where you're walking into the ring and you weren't afraid? [2:06:09] No. If I did, I didn't perform well. There was a few times I was overconfident and I didn't perform well because I tricked myself into not being scared. [2:06:18] So because I wasn't – because I didn't like being nervous, so I tricked myself into thinking I'm so good I don't have to be nervous. And then I fought so many times. [2:06:26] Like the problem is complacency. So if I probably, when I was competing, I probably had... [2:06:35] Somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 fights in martial arts and so [2:06:40] I did nothing but that from age 15 to 21, just traveled around the country. [2:06:44] And there was times where I did it so much that I was not nervous. And then I would go there and I wouldn't fight well. And then I would go, why is that? Why did I miss opportunities? Even if I won, I was like hypercritical. Even if I won, I just didn't like I got hit when I shouldn't have got hit. Like something was off. I didn't perform that well. And I realized somewhere along the line, I think right around I was like probably 19 or 20 when I really started to figure it out. I was like, oh, you have to be scared. [2:07:11] That thing that you don't like. [2:07:13] That's critical. It's critical to your performance because it keeps you on edge. You have to be nervous. You have to be. Mike Tyson talked about it. There's a fantastic video of Mike Tyson from his documentary where he's talking about his mindset leading to him getting into the ring.

[2:07:30] And that, you know, he talks about... [2:07:33] Thank you. [2:07:34] See if you can find that, Jamie. It's fucking excellent. Because this was Mike Tyson when he was Mike Tyson, when he was the most terrifying heavyweight boxer that ever walked the face of the earth. There was a period of time over like two or three years where I don't think anybody has ever come close to Mike Tyson. I know that's true. He was just supreme. He was so good and so different than anybody before him. [2:07:59] But it was also his mindset. He's a great scholar of history. I had a fantastic conversation with him about Genghis Khan. And when we started talking about it, he knew Genghis Khan's real name. His real name was Temujin. He knew his history. He's such an interesting person. I love to watch all his interviews. He knew that Genghis Khan's mother had been kidnapped on her wedding day, been kidnapped by a rival man and taken away and impregnated. And the man that she was supposed to marry, she never saw again. [2:08:29] was born with a blood clot in his hand. He was holding on to a blood clot as he was a young boy. And it was like a sign that he was going to be a great conqueror and a warrior. But listen to this. I have supreme confidence. I'm scared to death. I'm totally afraid. I'm afraid of everything. I'm afraid of losing. I'm afraid of being humiliated. The closer I get to the ring, the more confidence I get. The closer, the more confidence I get. During my training, I've been afraid of this man. [2:08:59] I'm more confident. Once I'm in the ring, I'm a god. No one can beat me.

[2:09:03] *music* [2:09:05] That's an abbreviated version of it. It's different in the film. It's like a little bit more drawn out. Somebody edited that down for Instagram. But it's this thing where you would think, how could that guy be afraid? [2:09:18] This episode is brought to you by Dodge. The new Dodge Charger Scat Pack is built for people who still believe driving should be exciting. You want to talk about performance? Let's start with a twin-turbo six-pack gas engine. All gas, no mercy, 550 horsepower, 0 to 60 in just 3.9 seconds, and a top speed of 177 miles an hour. [2:09:45] Unlike vehicles that make you choose between traction and attitude, the Dodge Charger Scat Pack comes with standard all-wheel drive and a selectable rear-wheel drive mode so you can get confident handling when you want it and the freedom to still be able to do burnouts. Available in both two-door and four-door models, the new Charger Scat Pack. It's loud, it's fast, it's powerful, and unapologetically Dodge. [2:10:15] Learn more at Dodge.com. Dodge is a registered trademark of FCA US LLC. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Summer means fun and making memories, but it can also feel like you're in survivor mode with packed schedules, keeping the kids entertained, and chaotic routines. That's not so fun.

[2:10:45] to recharge and can help make your summer more balanced and enjoyable. With BetterHelp, you can connect with a licensed therapist online. You'll be matched based on your needs and can switch anytime if it's not the right fit. With millions of clients worldwide, people are finding the support they need with BetterHelp. You don't have to say yes to everything this summer. Find [2:11:15] H-E-L-P dot com. [2:11:32] You know, when I think about when I was young and I'd be really nervous and pretending I wasn't nervous and that was the problem. And that now I said to you, I still experience it. I just know what to do. Yeah. You remember like that? Yes. When you're talking like that? What I was – what I know what to do is not to pretend that I'm not nervous. Right. Right. [2:11:51] It's as simple as that. When he's saying, I'm afraid, that's very powerful. It's kind of the same, a different spin on what I'm saying about. It's okay to say, I don't know. [2:12:02] I am afraid. [2:12:05] There's – [2:12:06] There's a great Sarah Bernhardt story about this young actress comes up to Sarah Bernhardt. She's this great actress from the previous, you know, a long time ago. But before Sarah Bernhardt was about to go on stage, this young actress asked her to sign her program. Sarah Bernhardt took it and her hands were shaking. And this young actress said, why are your hands shaking? She said, I'm nervous. And the young person said, I'm never nervous when I act. Sarah Bernhardt says, when you know what you're doing, you will be.

[2:12:36] that's great and it's a part of like what you're talking about with your fighting knowing that [2:12:45] There's nothing wrong with anxiety and with nerves. They can be your friend. They are there. They are here to warn you, prepare you, make you train a little harder, make you think a little sharper. Treating it like I'm embarrassed, I'm ashamed of being nervous. You know, Bill Russell apparently would be sick to his stomach before every game. He was the most winning basketball player in history. He was still – and that's why he won so much. You know, you have to care. You have to care. [2:13:15] Strangely, what that Tyson clip gets said... [2:13:19] If you can say that, the closer you get to game moment. [2:13:24] Now you're not pretending and you realize, oh, for me, it's just a scene. It's just a play. It's just a thing I can handle. This is – you remember that Jaguar paw in Apocalypto? When he has that moment, he's running through the woods and he's so afraid and he realizes this is my forest. [2:13:42] you know he's like I don't I don't have to be afraid in my forest [2:13:46] I'll fight these guys. I'm going to stop running. It's a great moment in that movie. And I feel that way. [2:13:53] When before I'm doing something... [2:13:55] this last movie I did, Blue Moon, really, really challenging part. I had so much confidence when we were talking about making the movie and all of a sudden it was greenlit. But like,

[2:14:07] When I flew to the location and I saw the set, I was like, oh, it was the weekend before we started. I got so nervous. I got sick. [2:14:17] You know, I woke up in the middle of the night just in pools of sweat. And my body was just like going, Ethan, this is going to – are you ready? Are you ready? You know, and I would wake up. I had to get up so early to go to work. I'd wake up an hour and a half before. [2:14:35] I was supposed, like, I got to go over these lines again. I got to go over this. How is this character walking? What is he doing? What is he saying? Is this part ready? Is this thing ready? Do they know what they're doing in that shot? [2:14:45] The cigar is ready. All the things. What are the things that are going to be that screw today up? How much can I see the day? Yeah. So that none of these things that might screw it up are going to screw it up. And so I kind of know what he means when it comes to. [2:14:59] But you've passed through the fire. So when it comes to fighting, well, he's either going to win or lose. It's going to be okay. [2:15:05] You know, there's something powerful. That anxiety can be a great friend. [2:15:12] His mentor, Customato, was also a hypnotist. Really? Yes. He was a psychologist. That I did not know. Yeah, he's a completely fascinating guy. He started hypnotizing Mike when he was 13. One of the things that he told Mike, he said, fear is like a fire. It can cook your food or it can burn your house down. Yeah. It depends on how you control it. I feel the same way about money. I feel the same way about ego. Yeah.

[2:15:42] fuel of a healthy life, but it has to be... [2:15:46] garden has to be managed really well and it's sadly daily. [2:15:51] Yeah, daily. It's not like you – sure, we're both old enough to know. It's not like you have some breakthrough when you're 33. I've had breakthroughs. I feel like, oh, I get it. I get it. I get it. And then the next day, I get it. Gosh, it's gone. Crap. You know, it happens to you over and over again. And that's life, I think. Yes, that is life. Yeah, and that's great for young people to hear because they think that there's going to come a point in time where they made it, where there's no fear. And I'm here to tell you, you don't want that. [2:16:21] You don't want it. It's never going to come. And even if it did come, you don't want it. It'll rob you of the exciting part of life. You ever hear that Jim Carrey bit? It always makes you laugh. He's like, he wins the Golden Globe and he goes to bed at night. He goes, gosh, I'm a Golden Globe winner. [2:16:37] What if I could be a two-time Golden Globe winner? What if I could be a three? You know, the brain. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The brain always wants more. Always. It can't stop it. That's why billionaires still work. Yeah. [2:16:50] Yeah. Why are they so miserable? [2:16:52] Because it's just chasing numbers. You're chasing numbers all the time. One of the things about in the rooms that I've been in, [2:16:59] with a lot of money. [2:17:00] Thank you. [2:17:02] Compared to the rooms I've been in where there isn't a lot of money, if you compare the laughter. Right. Yeah. Yeah. [2:17:09] It's no contest. Well, there's so much pressure involved in that kind of way of life. So why would you want a house with no laughter?

[2:17:16] I don't think they have options at that point. I think they're so locked into what they do. And it gets so competitive. I've seen guys like that who get so happy about a deal going right. [2:17:29] That's what... [2:17:30] It's fascinating to me. I mean, it's like... [2:17:33] Bye. [2:17:35] Wow. I didn't. But because the inverse is true. That makes you so happy. Mm hmm. [2:17:40] What happens if you lose that [2:17:42] Right. Million to bucks or whatever, 20 million. And it makes you happy for a brief amount of time because the reality is once you're wealthy, everything else is – my friend Brian said something to me a long time ago. The only amount of money you want is where you can go to a restaurant and not worry what the bill costs. [2:17:57] Everything else is bullshit. Well, I liken it to what happens if you get in a fender bender. I don't want to get in a fender bender and have – [2:18:06] a lot of trouble. Right. Like, I want that to be taken care of. Right. You don't want to not be able to pay your rent because you've got a fender bender. You don't want your kid not to get their medicine because you've got a fender bender. Right. You need to have room. A cushion. A little padding to, like... [2:18:22] I've never... [2:18:24] There's no vacation in... [2:18:27] An expensive vacation with my kids... [2:18:30] is not better. [2:18:32] than any vacation with my kids. Right. [2:18:34] Right, right, right. Romantic, same thing. Yeah. You can spend a fortune on a romantic weekend. It's not as... [2:18:42] Greatest it is to get stuck in a car when it's a blizzard out. Right. And you listen to a great record and she looks beautiful and says something funny and you both laugh. That's – you can't buy that. Right.

[2:18:55] Yeah. [2:18:56] But there's this feeling like you could. Well, our society puts so much emphasis on ultimate success. Like who's the richest man in the world? Well, do you think the richest man in the world is happier than the 30th richest man in the world? They're all rich as fuck. Like everything is available to them. It's all nonsense after that, after a certain point. Like, what are you doing? Why are you still working? Why are you still chasing zeros and ones? Like, what is the point? [2:19:23] What are you chasing? [2:19:25] Me? Yeah. [2:19:26] I don't. I don't think I'm chasing anything. I try not to be. I just enjoy what I do. I try to... I don't relate to it because that's what led me to that question. It's like, I'm like, what am I chasing? You know what I'm chasing... [2:19:40] What I said earlier, like I – [2:19:45] The last thing I shot... [2:19:47] We had a couple moments of grace. [2:19:50] You know, just weird. Like I can tell the crew's losing their lunch and everybody's so happy with the take that we got. And it's kind of moving and I was perfect. And the light came to the window at the right time. And then Peter Dinklage said this hysterical thing and he wasn't supposed to say it, but it worked out perfect. Because then the other actress, then she responded in that way. And then my hat fell off and everybody's and it's just it's high. And I drive home and I want to tell everybody and I can't wait for the world to see it. [2:20:18] You know, I am chasing that. Like, could that happen again? Yeah. You know, but it's not something I control. It's not something that it's a feeling I'm chasing, but it's a tangible thing. It's not status or money.

[2:20:34] You're chasing – you're doing, for lack of a better word, art. [2:20:39] And art has a sort of a pretentious air to it. A lot of people – there's certain words that have been sort of co-opted. [2:20:48] But the art of creation, the art of doing something. You would never – [2:20:54] I mean, I know you're exactly right. It happens to me all the time and it bothers me that what people think is pretentious. If I say to you, you know, I really want to make $100 million, nobody says I'm pretentious. [2:21:05] Right. Right. If I say, "I really like to make something beautiful that really moves people," what a pretentious ass. Right. Why is it? What I was going to say was... You go first. It's sincerity. It's sincerity because some people say that and they don't mean it. And that's most of the people that say that. And that's the problem. That's true. What I was going to say is like, if you're, you say 15, 14, your daughter, your youngest? 15. Yeah. If you came home today... [2:21:31] And she had made this crazy collage. And it was combining pictures of her friends from high school and this beautiful watercolor that she did around it. And she sprinkled glue on it and dropped sparkles on it and put it in a weird wood frame that – [2:21:46] her mother had given her that she'd like. And she said, isn't it beautiful, Dad? You would... [2:21:52] Would you ever say that's pretentious? Of course not. Of course not. Yeah. But the goal, when somebody says the word art to me, I don't hear pretentious. I hear the... [2:22:03] solar system. I hear like human creativity inside of us, man. It is inside me and it's inside you. And when I see a great movie or when I hear Jimi Hendrix rip a killer solo, then my whole body vibrates. Oh, hey, we're alive. Yes. You know, when Johnny Cash comes out with a sound you've never heard before, when it's a great rap song, you're like, I got to hear that again. I feel my

[2:22:33] It's real. [2:22:35] And so I feel that way very strongly. And that makes me want to go to set and that makes me not care whether the movie makes a billion dollars and makes two cents. There's a great one of the. [2:22:46] Great old English actor, Paul Schofield. I'm going to destroy this quote, but it was in his obituary. And he was in this great movie when I was a kid, Man for All Seasons. And he was in Redford's Quiz Show. And he was a great English actor. And [2:23:01] When he died in his obituary, there was an interview with him. He said, you were performing King Lear at your local church. Why weren't you doing it on the West End? [2:23:09] You know, because you were healthy enough. They were asking, why are you doing... He was doing a play at a local church near me. He said, I really like walking to work. And I realized that I really... [2:23:20] I have always only performed for whoever it was is that made me. And I can do that anywhere. I can do it on Broadway. I can do it in a Robert Redford movie and I can do it in my local theater. [2:23:35] It's the same action, and it's taken me a lifetime to realize that it doesn't. [2:23:40] I just love to do it. And he's like, and I'd like to walk to work. So I'm not going to West End. And I thought, I love this guy. Yeah. Well, that is real purity. [2:23:50] Yeah, when you're not chasing any prestige. [2:23:53] You're only doing it for the thing. And I bet there are people that he loved himself. [2:23:59] There. [2:24:00] Of course. Other people you're doing it for. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. And it's probably –

[2:24:06] more purity. [2:24:07] to it. [2:24:08] Knowing that it's not going to be reviewed in the New York Times. It's like you're doing something that you're only doing it for the love of it. And if you want to play pro ball... [2:24:17] You know, there's certain things, you know, [2:24:21] If you're, you know, the... [2:24:23] Augie the great... [2:24:25] He used to coach for UT baseball. It's a great thing that he'd say why he didn't coach the Yankees or the Red Sox because he won five NCAA championships. So the problem is with... [2:24:38] probe all the objects of the game is to win. [2:24:40] And in college sports, [2:24:43] My job is to develop young men. [2:24:46] And if I do that right, we will win. [2:24:50] But it's... [2:24:51] I like the priority. And I feel like if the priority is my own development – [2:24:57] you know, yeah, then it, [2:24:59] More times than not, something good will happen. If my priority is to win, make cash, be a big shot, blah, blah, blah. I've kind of lost why you should play the game. [2:25:11] Yeah, 100%. And the trick for me is, well, I do want to be a professional actor. I like... [2:25:16] I like being relevant. I like making relevant art. I like talking to people and communicating with people. So you have to figure out that balance of like, all right, this is how I pay my bills. This is – [2:25:28] you know, what... [2:25:29] facilitates on my whole life. So I have to... [2:25:34] be a little attentive to the professional part of my brain and not let it diminish the kid in me. Yes. You know, and to keep them both in some kind of balance. Yeah. And that's, for me, been my adult life. The term developing men or developing people, developing young people. My martial arts instructor, when I was a young boy, there was like a pamphlet that they had released explaining what the classes were all about.

[2:26:04] always stuck with me forever is martial arts are a vehicle for developing your human potential. [2:26:10] So is acting. Yeah. So is anything. So is playing chess. So is playing music. So is carpentry if you do it right. Everything. Everything. Yeah. Miyamoto Musashi, the famous samurai, had a great quote. Once you understand the way broadly, you can see it in all things. [2:26:26] Yeah. [2:26:27] I carry that on my own way. Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance. It's the same idea. [2:26:31] The real beauty of it all is concentrating on the development of the thing. And in that thing, you will grow as a human. And that's the thing when we're talking about boxing or fighting or acting or whatever. The thing about the 100% focus is it is... [2:26:51] It's kind of... [2:26:53] He... [2:26:54] By shedding everything, there's a discipline to that about seeing all the little details. I find, for example, in acting, they always talk about this. Is he a good listener? Like one of the things like, are you responding naturally like a human being? Can you listen? In the art of teaching myself about acting, about how to be present with my scene partner, I've learned how to be present. [2:27:19] with you. [2:27:21] With my kids. [2:27:22] When I'm... [2:27:23] at a baseball game with my friends. Right, right. It actually like it's meaning I'm taking the same idea that if you train to do a fight well, and you really feel what excellence at that level is like, you can feel it in other things. It can translate you you know what sloppy thinking is.

[2:27:43] If you've been relaxed while you're doing something hard, you know what it's like when you're tense because you're not having that feeling that you had in that fight where you were really great. That's the same with my – I've – [2:27:56] done performances where it goes up all by itself. [2:28:01] And it's an amazing feeling. A lot of work and preparation is to go into that feeling of disappearing. But now I know when it's not happening. And it doesn't mean I can make it happen. But at least an awareness that it's not happening is a great starting place to go. Why is it not happening? [2:28:26] So much, apparently, Jamie was saying of the dialogue that you guys had was completely improvised by Denzel. [2:28:33] Thank you. [2:28:33] He is... [2:28:37] an astonishing [2:28:38] And it's like... [2:28:41] Okay. [2:28:42] Yes, the short answer to your question is it was – [2:28:46] We would be doing ride-arounds. [2:28:48] you know, in the back of these cop cars, watching these arrests or talking to some of these people who really [2:28:53] lived the life that we were doing. And they would say something really funny. [2:28:57] And I would just see, Denzel would glance at me. [2:29:02] - Okay. [2:29:02] And I realized, oh, that just went in the computer. And then it would come out in a scene two months later. That line that that guy said, exactly, it would come out. It was a great script. I don't want to – David Ayer wrote the script. It's a phenomenal script. I mean when I read that script –

[2:29:20] I wanted that part so badly. [2:29:23] Denzel is one of my favorite actors. He is probably my favorite actor. I think, you know, Malcolm X and Raging Bull are two towering, maybe Nicholson, One Flew the Cuckoo's Nest. Like Liv is like the three great performances of my lifetime. And I think, you know, I think it's a great thing. [2:29:42] But his... [2:29:44] He's always listening. [2:29:47] always listening, talking, asking, thinking, curious, so present, so commanding. And if [2:29:57] You [2:29:58] Take responsibility for your own work. [2:30:02] You can have a great experience. [2:30:05] And if you don't, he'll run you over. [2:30:09] Like, I heard, like, King Kong ain't got shit on me. That was all just completely improvised. So it's like towards the... [2:30:15] last day of the shoot. [2:30:17] And... [2:30:19] I had been, when people say improvised, they think, oh, just some magic lightning bolt happened. It's months of work. [2:30:27] It was improvised. He's just supposed to yell... [2:30:30] fuck you or something as I'm walking away. In this [2:30:34] monologue flew out of his mouth. You know, y'all [2:30:38] Going to be playing for the Pelican Bay All-Stars. This is my neighborhood. You all just live here. King Kong ain't got nothing on me. Just all this stuff. And it was the last day of shooting, or third to last day or something. And it was all his prep.

[2:30:53] just, he's just, this is, here's, here's a line that didn't make the movie. Here's another line that didn't make the movie. Here's another thing I wanted to say. Here's another thing. And he just started throwing them all out there. And I, [2:31:03] I shit you not, man. [2:31:05] The shots, it's on me. I'm walking out of the... [2:31:08] You know, walking away from me, screaming, all this stuff. And that's when I say I'm chasing a feeling. [2:31:15] Like that's one of the, I mean, to just be there that day. [2:31:19] You know, to watch, you know, a great – somebody's working on a different level than everybody else. [2:31:25] He makes all of us look like we're mastering checkers. But to be there and be part of the magic, and I knew where I'd heard him audition some of those lines other places. We'd run lines together and he'd try this other thing. [2:31:41] He was amazing. [2:31:43] Amazing. That's what I mean about the power of his imagination. He was Alonso. [2:31:47] and anything that he would pick up or hear would go into the computer. And then he would look for the ways that he could help the script. [2:31:56] look for ways. You know, he wasn't... [2:31:59] He wasn't selfishly tearing the sail up to make it about him. He was always looking to help. I even remember he came to the set the day. I have this scene that he's not in with the... [2:32:11] the Cholo gang, you know, and they're, we're playing cards and, you know, you're right, you should have pushed in that scene, you know, where they put me in the bathtub and Denzel came to set [2:32:22] And he watched the scene. He was like,

[2:32:23] Damn. [2:32:24] I'm like, what? This is going to be the best scene in the movie, and I'm not in it. I hate this scene. It's funny. He walked away. [2:32:33] But it was very gracious. I mean, he was all in that movie. Yeah, that's awesome. That's awesome. [2:32:40] Ethan, thank you very much, man. This was a really fun conversation. I really enjoyed it. I'm really glad you had me. Thank you. And thank you for all the movies, man. I enjoyed the shit out of your career. If you can't tell, it's been my pleasure. Thank you. It's been mine as well. Thank you. Bye, everybody. [2:33:06] This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. Lots of places can accidentally expose you to identity theft. Doctors' offices, online retailers, insurance companies, the list goes on. Thankfully, LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats to your identity, which is way more than anyone could do on their own. LifeLock keeps an eye on your personal information, credit applications, finances, and more. [2:33:36] Suspicious, like new loans or changes to your financial accounts, they'll alert you right away. All through text, phone, email, or the LifeLock app. Even better, alerts are automatically activated the moment you become a LifeLock member. No extra work on your part. Get the alerts that could make all the difference. Don't wait. Join LifeLock now. Visit LifeLock.com slash J-R-E and save up to 30% your first year.

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